At first glance, there may be some logic to that...
…but he’s forgetting, of course, that players get injured every season. We might not lose Kendry in 2011, but we’ll lose someone important for a sustained period of time and if it’s one of our few players who knows which end of the bat to hold we’ll be shafted again.
The pitching staff looks peachy, the offense still looks anaemic. TR still has work to do.
Frazetta rules and is the blueprint, no doubt. I like Vallejo because of his more batshit concepts, like medieval knights on motorcycles and a buff Jesus ripping a cross to pieces.
Sorry but this is political spin and nothing more. He just wants lesser knowledgeable fans to feel good about buying season tickets. That’s part of his job.
We need another bat or this team is going to struggle again. Putting that bat at 3B makes the most sense since our third basemen suck. For some reason we aren’t looking for a catcher. I hope we’re looking for a left fielder.
How can you use words like "logic" in conjunction with MLB free agency
when you have player agents like Lord Boras out there? Or when the Nationally Stupids are willing to over pay for guys like Werth? Logic has the least ting to do with any moves made this time of year. Sure, Boston signed Crawford partly out of need, but partly to spite the Evil Empire in Stripes by taking him out of their grasp.
What part of “logic” makes paying grown men millions of dollars a year to play a children’s game okay? The pat answer is that it has evolved to this point over decades, but that is a cop-out to me.
You might not agree that it falls into the Funk & Wagnall’s definition of the word, or any sane person’s definition of the concept, but that is the way TR’s brain works. It isn’t the way my brain works.
But to your point about paying grown men to do silly things, you are totally wrong. YOU AND ME are the ones working to hard to pump money into this enterprise, not the players. The money IS going in regardless of what you might think about the inherent value to society at large, and the only question remaining is where does it land? Does it land in the pockets of the owners, or does it land in the pockets of the players? Would it be any more palatable to know that the players are making minimum wage and the owners are reaping in billions of raw profit because they are the ones who employ those players merely playing “a children’s game”?
(By the way, I also dispute your characterization that baseball is “a children’s game”. It is not. It is a game ALSO played by children, yes, but it was not invented to be a children’s game.)
I never said it was YOUR logic working (or not as the case may be) in this scenario.
I was merely pointing out the lack of applicability of traditional, argumentative, problem-solving logic to an illogical process such as free agent player signings. Free agency is an acceptable way of saying “baseball mercenary for hire!” The player goes to the highest bidder with the sweetest deal. Any argument about that point? No? Okay, I will continue.
I understand that the process has became entrenched in modern baseball enough to understand it will not go away any time soon. That is not to say i personally like it. I may be in the minority, but I would like to see some loyalty to the TEAM beyond contract lengths. Free agency does not allow for this and makes it a weakness, not an admirable quality. This baffles me, honestly leading me to my contention of illogicality.
And yes, I did characterize baseball as a “children’s game” (to quote you quoting me) because that is what it has become. It may not have started out as a game for people other than child aged, but then again neither did basketball, soccer or hockey. Like baseball, they too have become games played by children as well as by adults and considered “children’s games” meaning g"games played by children" regardless of whether adults play them too or not. I love baseball as a game, as an institution, and as a cultural touchstone. I was not denigrating baseball, as it seems you are accusing me of. If that was not your intent, I apologize. However, the fact remains that “logic” seems to have left the building on the big dollar/high year deals executed this month in my opinion.
Also, never once did I say that playing baseball was a “silly thing” (to use your words to do). I merely pointed out that playing baseball is an activity that children do as well as adults and is considered, by more people than myself, a children’s activity.
While I do not dispute that the owners are billionaires and are free to spend the money they have and make as they please, I was trying to point out that here seems to be no discernible rhyme or reason s to why one deal may be made while another is not. While it is true that after the fact, the deal may be analyzed and rationalized as to why the deal was complete. The key word here being RATIONALIZED.
The winners in this scenario are the players that get paid Millions and Millions of dollars to do something they would likely do anyway for fun if they were independently wealthy and had ho restraints or fetters on their time and attention. As it is, we have (some) rich men getting paid to play a game. I do not dispute this fact.
The point I was merely trying to make is that when you have people in the mix whose sole responsibility is to make their clients (and by extension, themselves) rich beyond all reason, logic goes out the window. It becomes merely another game to men like Scott Boras pitting one team against another as well as the ever-present phantom “other interested party” in order to drive the price up on their client players.
Reason and sanity may have no place in this mix, but perhaps a bit or restraint and a modicum of thinking could go a long way towards making crazy off-seasons like this one a thing of the past. Not likely, but hey, a guy can dream right?
I had better stop this before I begin rambling. I was not attacking you, I was merely pointing out a flaw in the system I had an issue with. Nothing more, nothing less. At this time, I hereby rest from further discussion on the topic having said my piece and more.
I'm going to refer you to an introductory economics textbook
Your argument is essentially what’s called “intrinsic value”: the price for a commodity should be determined by its nature. It works pretty well when an object has a manufacturing cost, an economic benefit derived from ownership, and stuff like that.
But the intrinsic theory can’t explain “subjective value,” which exists everywhere. Artwork, jewelry, heirlooms, pets—their economic value can really only be determined by what people are willing to pay for them.
Baseball free agency actually exhibits a little bit of both qualities. A good player can indirectly generate revenue because winning teams draw larger crowds, sign bigger TV deals, sell more merchandise, and so on. But the Yankees, for instance, are also willing to pay more for Derek Jeter for subjective reasons.
If you think free agency is irrational, then you have to believe that our entire economic system is irrational. Even though it is a highly regulated economy, it functions on exactly the same principles. Not like our national economy is regulated or anything.
I don’t like about the Angels, is when they open their mouth and talk. Whether it’s the FO or Soth or even the players, (‘cept Torii maybe.) It’s the same canned bullshit, one game at a time, we’re confident with our team, blah, blah, blah. just once I’d like to see one of them say something original. Or hell, just shut up and say nothing. Might as well answer everything with “No comment.” It would be about the same thing.
Put just about any two teams in a short series and the team that has fewer bad games is going to come out on top once play begins no matter what roster you do or do not have. True, the team with the better roster to begin with will be less likely to have multiple bad games, but it has happened in the past.
I didn't know they handed out trophies in December
We don’t have to beat Boston or New York to get to the playoffs; we have to beat Texas (and possibly Oakland).
In a 5-7 game series, I’ll put Weaver, Haren, Santana, Pineiro against Lester, Beckett, Buckholz, Lackey or Lee, CC, Burnett, Hughes and run with it. Our bullpen is arguably better than both of those teams’ too, with the exception of Mariano.
We are going to offer Beltre a good amount of money and a 6 year deal, there’s no guarantee that Morales will come back and be 2009 Kendry, which is my greatest fear. A 1.5 year layoff from baseball could do that to him :(
Beltre is a great defender, has power, and will be a great hitter to our lineup that can compliment Torii Kendry and Bobby. The main issue is that we will have a righty-heavy lineup but things could be worse.
My next question is, do we go after Magglio as well? He’s seeking a 2 yr deal but maybe we can get one with an option and a buyout if he sucks this next year.
What 3B players are out there we could get, though?
Beltre is of course the name on everyone’s lips. I am not sure who is available and I’m pretty sure that the Mets are going to veto talks about Wright at the beginning of the conversation.
I agree with your point about Glaus being our last really good 3B player.
Like others have mentioned, 3B, Mathis in the lineup, maybe CF (although I’m willing to give Bourjos’s bat a chance to develop) and LF when Rivera and whoever is out there. If the team doesn’t get off its butt and sign Beltre, the last biggie free agent that would fill a pothole in the lineup for us, this is going to be a seriously lousy year- rebuilding without any pieces to rebuild with.
At first glance, there may be some logic to that...
…but he’s forgetting, of course, that players get injured every season. We might not lose Kendry in 2011, but we’ll lose someone important for a sustained period of time and if it’s one of our few players who knows which end of the bat to hold we’ll be shafted again.
The pitching staff looks peachy, the offense still looks anaemic. TR still has work to do.
The Limey - December 13, 2010
Tony's comments about the "four free agents"
…was, in my opinion, nothing more than the same, tired “feel-good” spin that started with “we’ll win with what we’ve got”.
The offense is anemic with, in my opinion, holes at 3rd base, LF, and if Napoli is DH’ing – catcher.
mustard_man - December 13, 2010
Couldn't have said it better myself.
angelslogic - December 13, 2010
I love how a few days ago, sky was the limit in terms of FA's.
Now Tony is telling us Dan Haren and Kowbell are the equivalent of new FA’s. I hope Dan does a better job at 3rd than Brandon Wood.
halofolife - December 13, 2010
If we're operating in a vacuum, sure it's plenty.
But we don’t and we live in a world where the Yankees, Red Sox Rangers and Twins all have deeper lineups.
Are we trying to do just enough to sneak into the playoffs or actually win something?
ihearhowie2.0 - December 13, 2010
Tony should get the axe for letting this shit dribble out of his mouth.
Big splashes!
clover_black - December 13, 2010
I hope Reagins is right
But I’m afraid it’ll be more like The Four Horsemen of The Apocalypse.
rspencer - December 13, 2010
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse?
DAD OF VLAD - December 13, 2010
Famine, War, Pestilence and Gary Matthews Jr.
in that order
Rev Halofan - December 13, 2010
Rec'd
red floyd - December 13, 2010
That looks like a Boris Vallejo, or at least someone ripping off Vallejo. He is the greatest artist in the history of mankind.
Buff dudes, boobs and mystical creatures…he hits all the cornerstones of good art.
Mayheminthehood - December 13, 2010
Franz Frazetta's Farts
are superior to Vallejo’s highest efforts.
Rev Halofan - December 13, 2010
Frazetta rules and is the blueprint, no doubt. I like Vallejo because of his more batshit concepts, like medieval knights on motorcycles and a buff Jesus ripping a cross to pieces.
Mayheminthehood - December 13, 2010
Reagins is full of shit....
Sorry but this is political spin and nothing more. He just wants lesser knowledgeable fans to feel good about buying season tickets. That’s part of his job.
We need another bat or this team is going to struggle again. Putting that bat at 3B makes the most sense since our third basemen suck. For some reason we aren’t looking for a catcher. I hope we’re looking for a left fielder.
Nashdiesel - December 13, 2010
We still have no one to hit behind Kendry, though
So suck that logic, Tony.
Sethy - December 13, 2010
We need another big bat
But if we get rid of Mathis, then it’d be enough.
Dan 91 - December 13, 2010
That's called addition by subtraction...
Mathis not fun.
Downing Rules - December 13, 2010
By that logic,
making the decision to tender Mathis is the equivalent to having lost out on a Carl Crawford.
Oh. Wait.
Stirrups - December 13, 2010
How can you use words like "logic" in conjunction with MLB free agency
when you have player agents like Lord Boras out there? Or when the Nationally Stupids are willing to over pay for guys like Werth? Logic has the least ting to do with any moves made this time of year. Sure, Boston signed Crawford partly out of need, but partly to spite the Evil Empire in Stripes by taking him out of their grasp.
What part of “logic” makes paying grown men millions of dollars a year to play a children’s game okay? The pat answer is that it has evolved to this point over decades, but that is a cop-out to me.
Angelsfan015 - December 13, 2010
Hey, it ain't MY logic. It's Reagins' logic.
You might not agree that it falls into the Funk & Wagnall’s definition of the word, or any sane person’s definition of the concept, but that is the way TR’s brain works. It isn’t the way my brain works.
But to your point about paying grown men to do silly things, you are totally wrong. YOU AND ME are the ones working to hard to pump money into this enterprise, not the players. The money IS going in regardless of what you might think about the inherent value to society at large, and the only question remaining is where does it land? Does it land in the pockets of the owners, or does it land in the pockets of the players? Would it be any more palatable to know that the players are making minimum wage and the owners are reaping in billions of raw profit because they are the ones who employ those players merely playing “a children’s game”?
(By the way, I also dispute your characterization that baseball is “a children’s game”. It is not. It is a game ALSO played by children, yes, but it was not invented to be a children’s game.)
Stirrups - December 13, 2010
I never said it was YOUR logic working (or not as the case may be) in this scenario.
I was merely pointing out the lack of applicability of traditional, argumentative, problem-solving logic to an illogical process such as free agent player signings. Free agency is an acceptable way of saying “baseball mercenary for hire!” The player goes to the highest bidder with the sweetest deal. Any argument about that point? No? Okay, I will continue.
I understand that the process has became entrenched in modern baseball enough to understand it will not go away any time soon. That is not to say i personally like it. I may be in the minority, but I would like to see some loyalty to the TEAM beyond contract lengths. Free agency does not allow for this and makes it a weakness, not an admirable quality. This baffles me, honestly leading me to my contention of illogicality.
And yes, I did characterize baseball as a “children’s game” (to quote you quoting me) because that is what it has become. It may not have started out as a game for people other than child aged, but then again neither did basketball, soccer or hockey. Like baseball, they too have become games played by children as well as by adults and considered “children’s games” meaning g"games played by children" regardless of whether adults play them too or not. I love baseball as a game, as an institution, and as a cultural touchstone. I was not denigrating baseball, as it seems you are accusing me of. If that was not your intent, I apologize. However, the fact remains that “logic” seems to have left the building on the big dollar/high year deals executed this month in my opinion.
Also, never once did I say that playing baseball was a “silly thing” (to use your words to do). I merely pointed out that playing baseball is an activity that children do as well as adults and is considered, by more people than myself, a children’s activity.
While I do not dispute that the owners are billionaires and are free to spend the money they have and make as they please, I was trying to point out that here seems to be no discernible rhyme or reason s to why one deal may be made while another is not. While it is true that after the fact, the deal may be analyzed and rationalized as to why the deal was complete. The key word here being RATIONALIZED.
The winners in this scenario are the players that get paid Millions and Millions of dollars to do something they would likely do anyway for fun if they were independently wealthy and had ho restraints or fetters on their time and attention. As it is, we have (some) rich men getting paid to play a game. I do not dispute this fact.
The point I was merely trying to make is that when you have people in the mix whose sole responsibility is to make their clients (and by extension, themselves) rich beyond all reason, logic goes out the window. It becomes merely another game to men like Scott Boras pitting one team against another as well as the ever-present phantom “other interested party” in order to drive the price up on their client players.
Reason and sanity may have no place in this mix, but perhaps a bit or restraint and a modicum of thinking could go a long way towards making crazy off-seasons like this one a thing of the past. Not likely, but hey, a guy can dream right?
I had better stop this before I begin rambling. I was not attacking you, I was merely pointing out a flaw in the system I had an issue with. Nothing more, nothing less. At this time, I hereby rest from further discussion on the topic having said my piece and more.
Angelsfan015 - December 13, 2010
I'm going to refer you to an introductory economics textbook
Your argument is essentially what’s called “intrinsic value”: the price for a commodity should be determined by its nature. It works pretty well when an object has a manufacturing cost, an economic benefit derived from ownership, and stuff like that.
But the intrinsic theory can’t explain “subjective value,” which exists everywhere. Artwork, jewelry, heirlooms, pets—their economic value can really only be determined by what people are willing to pay for them.
Baseball free agency actually exhibits a little bit of both qualities. A good player can indirectly generate revenue because winning teams draw larger crowds, sign bigger TV deals, sell more merchandise, and so on. But the Yankees, for instance, are also willing to pay more for Derek Jeter for subjective reasons.
If you think free agency is irrational, then you have to believe that our entire economic system is irrational. Even though it is a highly regulated economy, it functions on exactly the same principles. Not like our national economy is regulated or anything.
Suboptimal - December 14, 2010
Fair enough.
The scope of my argument was admittedly narrow and it appears I was trying to apply logic myself to the situation!
Oh well, so goes life, huh?
Angelsfan015 - December 14, 2010
The only thing
I don’t like about the Angels, is when they open their mouth and talk. Whether it’s the FO or Soth or even the players, (‘cept Torii maybe.) It’s the same canned bullshit, one game at a time, we’re confident with our team, blah, blah, blah. just once I’d like to see one of them say something original. Or hell, just shut up and say nothing. Might as well answer everything with “No comment.” It would be about the same thing.
Grumble, grumble, how long till spring training….
Monkeyspanked - December 13, 2010
who cares still not going to win you a world series, bo sox are loaded and the yanks will always be in the mix
Angelsfan1 - December 13, 2010
True, but anyone can have a bad series.
Put just about any two teams in a short series and the team that has fewer bad games is going to come out on top once play begins no matter what roster you do or do not have. True, the team with the better roster to begin with will be less likely to have multiple bad games, but it has happened in the past.
Angelsfan015 - December 13, 2010
I didn't know they handed out trophies in December
We don’t have to beat Boston or New York to get to the playoffs; we have to beat Texas (and possibly Oakland).
In a 5-7 game series, I’ll put Weaver, Haren, Santana, Pineiro against Lester, Beckett, Buckholz, Lackey or Lee, CC, Burnett, Hughes and run with it. Our bullpen is arguably better than both of those teams’ too, with the exception of Mariano.
Commander_Nate - December 13, 2010
Sure they do. Didn't you see Seattle's trophy ceremony last December?
red floyd - December 13, 2010
They got the trophies from Oriental Trading Company, right?
They looked very impressive. Gold plastic and everything!
Angelsfan015 - December 13, 2010
You mean the Fail Trophy?
Commander_Nate - December 13, 2010
Yeah
I saw it on page 58, I think. Just that model, too!
Angelsfan015 - December 14, 2010
We haven't had a top tier 3rd baseman since Glaus
We are going to offer Beltre a good amount of money and a 6 year deal, there’s no guarantee that Morales will come back and be 2009 Kendry, which is my greatest fear. A 1.5 year layoff from baseball could do that to him :(
Beltre is a great defender, has power, and will be a great hitter to our lineup that can compliment Torii Kendry and Bobby. The main issue is that we will have a righty-heavy lineup but things could be worse.
My next question is, do we go after Magglio as well? He’s seeking a 2 yr deal but maybe we can get one with an option and a buyout if he sucks this next year.
jtkelly86 - December 13, 2010
What 3B players are out there we could get, though?
Beltre is of course the name on everyone’s lips. I am not sure who is available and I’m pretty sure that the Mets are going to veto talks about Wright at the beginning of the conversation.
I agree with your point about Glaus being our last really good 3B player.
Angelsfan015 - December 13, 2010
None
Beltre is seriously our only realistic option.
Commander_Nate - December 13, 2010
We haven’t had a top tier 3rd baseman since
GlausCarney LansfordDowning Rules - December 13, 2010
Doug DeCinces did more for us than C-Lan
Though I’ll take Glaus.
mattwelch - December 14, 2010
Cliff Lee ain't comin' back to Texas
That’s worth SOMETHING.
scareduck - December 14, 2010
A whole damn lot of something!
Angelsfan015 - December 14, 2010
Just too many steaming craters in this offense-
Like others have mentioned, 3B, Mathis in the lineup, maybe CF (although I’m willing to give Bourjos’s bat a chance to develop) and LF when Rivera and whoever is out there. If the team doesn’t get off its butt and sign Beltre, the last biggie free agent that would fill a pothole in the lineup for us, this is going to be a seriously lousy year- rebuilding without any pieces to rebuild with.
Jimatkins - December 14, 2010
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