Halos Heaven

quality start today

from mose. 6 inn, 3 runs

Quality start is the worst stat ever

it legitimizes mediocrity.

He had one inning where he gave up runs

and those only because Morales let a ball under his glove.

He was fine.

That's one way of looking at it

too bad the number of innings in which you allowed runs doesn’t really matter.

What matters is he got tagged all night until it caught up with him. He’s done it his whole tenure with the Angels…he doesn’t allow much in the first few innings, makes everyone comfortable, and then his horrible pitch-to-solid-contact style catches up fast.

so, when are you going to order the hit?

Hard to find a good hitman these days

most had to change careers in this economy.

You know what they always say…when times are tough, one of the first things to go is always your go-to hitman.

And then gets out of it with a solid game?

Seriously WTF? You’re gonna bitch and moan about 3 runs in 6 innings? What kind of absurd bullshit is that?

Because I hate a world of baseball where things are so watered down

that a 4.50 ERA gets considered “solid” or “quality.”

He didn’t give up more out of luck, not because he’s a good pitcher. And you’re not going to get me to come within a mile of agreement. If the A’s were more selective tonight, he’d have given up 6 runs.

You've apparently cast any semblance of being reasonable or objective about this out the window.

My bet is that Moseley could pitch a shut out, and you’d still be moaning. It’s really sad when fans take out vendettas against their own players like that.

I find your stance equally unacceptable

this is not the first, nor is it the last time that I have mentioned on this very site my total disgust with the idea of the “quality start.” It has far less to do with Moseley than it does with my total repulsion at the idea that baseball pitching has fallen so hard that we now reward mediocre pitchers with a positive stat for when they merely avoid getting the crap kicked out of them.

And like living in a country does not require you to love the people who run it or the decisions they make, so does rooting for the Angels not require me to love the players we choose to march out.

I don’t want him on the team. At all. Period.

ahh....

the first zu long argument of the year

Dude, not even close.

This is a continuation of an argument that started a few days ago.

ohh

lol. wasnt there

No one wants you to put on a Moseley jersey.

But expecting him to be Cy Young because you’ve got some problem with the state of baseball is freakin’ STUPID. He’s the sixth starter and minor league callup. His job is to keep us in the game. He did that. Holding him to some kind of “overall quality standards of the league” is bullshit and you ought to know it.

I still think you're as full of shit as I am

I hold anyone who comes in to pitch for my team to the standard of being league average. If getting the shit knocked out of you and not giving up AS many runs as you should have because the team you’re facing sucks too much to get one timely hit, and then leaving the game with an ERA of 4.50 is considered even average, then fine…by that awful standard, congratulations Dustin Moseley, on not being Jason Dickson for a night.

That I am confident that this is likely the best of Moseley that we will see this year in a starting capacity (though he may ‘match’ the effort again) is also extremely discouraging.

Nevermind the fact that it’s immensely frustrating to see the same tired Moseley M.O. EVERY SINGLE START, with no one ever doing anything about it. That would, of course, be his ability to pitch 3 innings just fine, and then get knocked around quickly and thoroughly before anyone realizes what happened.

4.5 runs a game IS league average.

That’s the whole freaking point. That he is the sixth starter pitching league average means I don’t give a crap if he gave up a bunch of singles. The only reason to say he sucks is if you were expecting some kind of ace to step up there. Hell, you want to know how many number 5 starters manage 4.5 ERA? Or even number 4? Jon Garland didn’t last year.

Moseley is what he is. He’s not that good, but he isn’t even close to the kind of Holy-shit-the-sky-just-fell-pack-up-the-season-we’re-done calamity that you keep calling him.

And I think he is

my whole point essentially, especially in bringing up the number of hits he allows, is how dangerously close this piece of crap is to just a total game-ruining.

He faced an Oakland team tonight that was overly aggressive and popped shitty pitches up with runners in scoring position rather than waiting for their pitch. That’s the only reason he got men out at all.

The number of runs he allowed tonight (my qualms with quality starts aside) is 95% a reflection of how poorly Oakland was playing at the plate. The amount of hard, big contact he allows, going forward, is immensely discouraging and against better opponents is likely disastrous.

The 5.52 career ERA, 1.552 WHIP (right in line with his performance tonight in terms of WHIP), and .309 BAA are terrifying. That his line tonight was right at that level suggests strongly that continued performance in this mold are likely to produce worse ERA performances when he faces better competition. Him dodging a bullet against a lineup of has-beens and not-quite-yets proves to me nothing, since he still got hit hard in the process.

I look forward to the day this man no longer pitches.

Yeah, a career ERA that includes all of 120 innings.

That’s a legit sample size.

You could say the exact same thing about Joe Saunders start last night. Getting guys to swing at shitty pitches is what you’re SUPPOSED to do. The A’s didn’t get a chance to wait for their pitch because Moseley was pounding the zone all night. 70 strikes in 105 pitches is a pretty decent ratio. He struck out four and didn’t walk an A’s team noted for their patience. He kept away from the center of the zone and never gave up the big hit.

All I can say is if Moseley is all it takes to scare you, then you should thank Jesus that you’re an Angels fan. If you saw the kind of people other teams ran out on a routine basis, you’d probably cry naked in the corner of your basement for a week.

I'm a Mets fan, too

I’ve seen Oliver Perez pitch, so I know what scary looks like.

There isn’t a thing you’ve said that’s come close to altering my view. And I’m sure the same goes for what I’ve done. The only difference is I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind. I don’t give two shits if the entire world things Moseley is a quality starter to have in the short term. His presence on the team disgusts me, and given his horrid past, will continue to do so.

Yes, you’re right that a 150 (not 120) IP sample size is small. It’s too bad that there’s nothing in his minor league track record (of more than 900 innings with a WHIP near 1.40, and a BAA against of around .300) that suggests his major league performance is a fluke. Rather, it suggests a sign of things to come. In fact, he hasn’t had a freakin’ minor league ERA BELOW 4.65 since Bush was declaring “mission accomplished.” So I would say at this point, it’s fair to use his stats (sample sizes be damned) against him.

Let’s leave it at this: you obviously have a higher tolerance for bad pitchers than I do. And neither of us are likely to bridge that gap.

I'm not trying to alter your view.

I just refuse to let garbage opinions based biased and inaccurate assessments stand, especially when it’s about my team. When you post things like he sucked and is a worthless piece of shit, I counter that he was just fine not because I expect your opinion to change, but because it is the simple truth in my estimation.

Moseley’s recent minor league stats, have come out of launch-pad parks. Despite that, he’s still got a career 4.44 minor league ERA. And for the record, I’d take a 4.63 ERA from our 6th starter.

If you want to hunker down in your mental bunker, stick your fingers in your ears and yell that Moseley is a disaster waiting to happen, fine. But I draw the line at pretending that 6 innings 3 ER, however shitty the team it happened against is, was anything other than a completely acceptable outcome from a backup starter.

My argument

for the 1,001st time now, is of what the OTHER statistics from tonight tell me about the future of Moseley going FORWARD mean.

Christ. I’ve already stated that my previous diatribe against “quality starts” was more about my disdain for that statistic even existing (which is why my first post on the topic of quality starts did not even mention Moseley’s name). I was not saying in and of itself that 6IP, 3ER is wholly unacceptable.

What I was saying, and will continue to say, is that the level of hard contact he was pitching to tonight against a mediocre opponent ABSOLUTELY does give grounds to be pessimistic about the future of the pitcher. And that’s what this is about. If you want to paint it some other way, have fun with that. All my point comes down to is this: A 1.50 WHIP and a BAA well over .300 do not play out well in the big leagues, and expecting a continued 4.50 ERA to stem from that is not a good bet.

Calling me biased also requires something of a circular logic in this whole case, as well. You assert that I am biased. Why? Because I hate Moseley, therefore I am biased against him? And why do I hate him? Because of my bias against him, apparently.

You ARE biased because you hate Moseley.

WHY you hate Moseley is something only you can know, because quite frankly it baffles me. You don’t have to like him and you make a can make a decent case for continuing to worry about him as a starter, but when you start tossing around epithets like “absolute vile piece of shit” about a guy who has been horrible all of once in his career, certain impressions will be made.

You have ground to be pessimistic. If all you wanted to do was say “Well, he made the pitches he had to tonight, but I’m still worried about the rest of the month for X, Y, Z reasons,” no one would have cared. But that’s NOT all you were saying earlier and it isn’t all you’ve said. There’s a fine line between pessimism and douchebaggery, but when it comes to Moseley (and ONLY Moseley) you seem to miss it entirely, and THAT’s why I call bias.

the most absurd kind.

NEGATIVITY ABOUNDS

Sorry

I find nothing absurd about holding a higher standard than our watered-down league now wants to hold pitchers to.

Nor do I find anything absurd about being frustrated by a bad pitcher pitch a bad game, but get bailed out by crappy Oakland hitters, and then seeing people celebrate it as a success just because he ever-so-slightly avoided a total bed-shitting.

I find it absurd that you call a performance like this from a sixth starter shitty.

It’s retarded and beneath you.

He got hit harder than Bobby Cox's wife

that he gave up only 3 runs is a testament to the shittiness of Oakland, not his pitching ability.

Wow, 8 singles and a double.

You’re right, he got lit up. What could I have been thinking?

In 6 innings?

Yeah, I would say that sucks.

I'd say he got knocked around but never let the game get out of hand.

Given that 4.5 runs per game is around league average, that’s a pretty messed up definition of sucks you got there.

Never let the game get out of hand

because Oakland (shockingly enough, considering their reputation) showed zero patience in squaring up his constant meatballs. He pitched a bad game where he avoided letting it show THAT much in the box score (though, as I’ve said, even that’s debateable) because of the quality of hitter he faced.

Yeah, blame Oakland.

What were those jerks thinking not hitting homer after homer off him to prove once and for all how bad he is?

I mean, it’s not like an even shittier Oakland offense blew us out twice in the space of a week last season.

What a load of crap, scarecrow argument

you and I both know, particularly as Angels fans who have watched our team do the same exact thing, how easy it is for an offense to run themselves out of big innings against crappy pitchers.

There’s a shitload of difference between a team’s offense “not hitting homer after homer” off a guy to “prove once and for all how bad he is” and not being selective and patient with RISP in situations that heavily favor the offense. His stuff was consistently hittable all night, and a more patient and developed team would have exploited that rather than hacking in early counts and popping shit up. They weren’t swinging because of Moseley’s overwhelming stuff. They were because they were impatient and not taking advantage of hitter’s situations at the plate.

They hacked early because they HAD TO.

Seriously which game were you watching? I was watching the one where Moseley was consistently getting ahead of guys who stayed patient early.

In fact the only inning where they actually SCORED was the one where they started hacking early in the count.

But like I said, Moseley could probably pitch a 1-hit shutout, and your conclusion would be that it was only because the other team sucked. At this point, it has become clear, Moseley’s actual performance or what even HAPPENED in the game is immaterial to you. He is incapable of ever being the least bit good or doing anything right in your mind. In other words, you now have a complex about him.

I have no complex about him

I have a complex about the tolerance others HAVE for him.

My arguments against him started as a RESPONSE to the level of acceptability people had for him being a member of our rotation in the early going, and my general desire to not see him pitch for the team at all. In my totally fair and legitimate opinion, the level of comfort people with him being a starter (regardless of context) is just too out of whack with what he potentially has to offer the team.

If the man pitched well, fine, I would be okay with it.

But in a start with a WHIP of 1.50 and a BAA of well over .300, I hesitate to call the start ‘good’ more than anyone else would, and see a LOT of the stuff Moseley has done in past years when he has consistently put up bad numbers…which indicate to me that, going forward, there’s a lot of reason for legitimate worry about how he’ll do against better opponents.

And if you can’t see that side, enjoy your blindness. I don’t give a shit, because I was never in this argument to convince anyone of anything.

He hasn't consistently put up bad numbers though.

That’s the point. He has had ONE, count it, ONE season where he totally shit the bed at both the major and minor league level. Beyond that he’s been marginal. “Acceptable” even.

I don’t think I’m the one who’s being blind here. If you can’t see a reason for people to feel good about a sixth starter who kept the team in a ballgame, however tenuously he may have done so, you’re out of your mind.

To say it for the thousandth time

my concern is that, going forward, his performance tonight is NOT indicative of good things to come.

As for ONE bad season?

Not quite.

2004: 4.62 ERA (AAA)
2005: 5.03 ERA (AAA)
2006: 4.69 ERA (AAA)

The major league equivalents of any of those are NOT pretty at all.

Those in addition to his 2008 season which was just godawful.

And those who remember his 2007 well will recall that he got off to a hot start early, got figured out, and then sucked for the entire second half of the season CONSISTENTLY. His total 4.40 ERA belies the fact that after he was figured out, he has been consistently bad at the major league level since. The second half of that year, he had a 5.90ERA and .846 OPS against. Awful numbers. Injury or not, his 2008 was a continuation of a previously developed trend.

So basically, a bad minor league career ever since 2004 (basically since AAA), and a major league career made to look ever-so-slightly not like shit by a few good outing early before he started getting hammered from June ’07 until today.

The Major League equivalents?

Are we talking about the same major league equivalents that claimed Joe Saunders was really a 4.4 ERA pitcher in SLC? Or that last year he was really a 4.14 ERA guy?

Seriously, ever looked at what happens to most pitchers in SLC? The place is a launch pad. The drop-off from SLC to the majors, especially a pitchers park like Anaheim isn’t nearly as bad as some would claim. Calling 4.65, 5.03, 4.63 series of seasons there bad is over the top. It’s not number one ace prospect material, but for a 6th starter? That’s pretty much what you’re gonna find anywhere.

And Moseley’s second half decline in 2007 plus poor 2008 couldn’t POSSIBLY be due to the injury, surgery, and subsequent recovery?

There’s a reason they call it “replacement level.” Moseley is the very definition of who it is referring to.

What I want to know

Is how the hell do you guys find the time for these kind of back and forth arguments?

LosAngel - April 8, 2009 reply

Sleep deprivation mostly.

Caseys Kiss of Death - April 8, 2009 reply

word

I should be in bed myself.

LosAngel - April 8, 2009 reply

No

the REAL question is what are YOU doing that’s keeping you from having the time to get in these kind of back and forth arguments?

The problem is, though

That whereas Saunders came onto the scene and disproved his SLC/MLB equivalents, Moseley has shown consistently since then that they were quite a fair indicator of his major league equivalent.

I doubt that a near two-year long problem with Moseley (longer if we date it back to his minor league days of suck) was solely the product of injury.

He’s a turd and the quicker he’s off my team, the better. Period.

I’d almost rather have Reggie Willits. ALMOST.

Caseys Kiss of Death - April 8, 2009 reply

Dude...

you have had about 500 posts about Moseley sucking. OK, we fucking get it. Enough already.

Dang, I used an F-bomb.

And you and the others have 500 posts attempting to refute it

why the burden is on me to stop anymore than others is beyond me.

I can’t exactly keep saying I think he sucks if people would stop getting so uppity about it, now could I? This is as much on the people who argue against me as it is on me.

We see a postive performance, like tonight and do a polite golf clap “decent job, Dustin; now, let the offense do their job and pick you up.”

Whereas, you see any chink in the armor and say “oh my god, the flood has started.”

Your diatribe is jading all of us. End it now. Try to be positive once, man.

I am positive when I see things to be positive against

don’t let the fact that I am in disagreement with others serve as some kind of reasoning for assuming me to constantly hold negative opinions.

How many of my arguments have centered around me defending K-Rod when others demanded he leave, or how many times have I been the one quick to point out how great G.A. was for this team when others ridiculed him as lazy or awful? An argument in itself does not necessitate that I was the one dishing out the negatives.

The simple fact remains that one person alone cannot be faulted for the duration of a lengthy argument. It takes two parties unwilling to quit, and to call me out as the cause solely because I had the negative ‘side’ to the argument is devoid of any logic.

Also, the whole thing started because I made fun of the fact that our starter tonight was our mop-up man last year…not because I said he sucked. That was someone else’s interpretation, even if I did run with it from there.

Caseys Kiss of Death - April 8, 2009 reply

cool, man. hopefully, he goes out and gives up only one run next time, because I am concerned that with my luck, he’s going to get lit up for 7 in 1-2/3’s now that i’ve defended him!! ;)

Downing Rules - April 8, 2009 reply

Don't ever defend Vladdy or Howie in that case

or anyone.

In fact, join me and just crap on people and watch them succeed.

Who knows, maybe with MY luck, my shit-talking of Moseley will get to him and he’ll throw a perfect game.

In which case I will immediately issue a mea culpa (which, btw, I was actually considering through 3 innings tonight).

If you had I'd have told you to keep hating on him

so as not to jinx him. :-P

Mediocrity isn't bad

It’s why we compare to “league average.”

Carl Johnson - April 7, 2009 reply

By definition

it’s not good either.

Frankly, I come from the line of thinking that an ERA of 4.50 should not be celebrated as “quality.” He got tagged all night, and it showed.

league average

means starter #2.5, Moseley is way beyond that so our expectations should be adjusted accordingly.

Don’t get me wrong, every fan would love to have 5 #1 starters. As long as we get to the playoffs and Moseley’s #5/#6 starter stats are not needed to get us to the promised land, i am fine with it.

LosAngel - April 8, 2009 reply

Man

almost forgot about him…oh wait hes our #2 starter now…

Vlad should be forced to sign an autograph

everytime he makes an out on one pitch or strikes out on pitches 2 feet out of the zone

UCIHalo - April 7, 2009 reply

yes

hahaha

AHaloInSF - April 7, 2009 reply

who's the BOTG?

Give it to Figgins

because he hdoesnt have a hit and has popped out 5+ times in 2 games

what the heck

what are you guys doing this with 2 innings left?

the rally monkey was high and just fell off my roof

Im just

having fun man nothing wrong with that

its fine...just dont jinx it! its not good karma to talk that way :)

contract year, hes gotta hit 30 bombs

stop!!!

2nd game of the season and we're here already?

Carl Johnson - April 7, 2009 reply

serious bitching...

I agree with you carl

Bud Selig

for not banning Jason Giambi from baseball.

shea hillenbrand

Nobody, because

THE GAME’S NOT OVER YET. 0_o

dammit i got sucked in... i refute my previous statement

unless his next AB is good... juan and his sack of LOB's

when do we concede the game and put in speier

Now would have been a good time

The Halos just can’t score

stolenbases - April 7, 2009 reply

1 down, and I really want to know why Jepsen was in instead of Darren.

Because Mike wanted to go with the seasoned veteran reliever who has done us well

to protect the tie ball game, instead of using an unproven nobody.

Oh wait.

If Pedro of Peavy were in there...

it’d be 14-2 A’s right now. I see the future, man.

pardon me...

parallel present-times.

Rivers for BOTG

but it ain’t over yet….

AHaloInSF - April 7, 2009 reply

shhhhhh.....

not yet!

and believe it or not … he still has a shot at that award that starts with a P that we cannot say for fear of jinxing it.

bulger

soth throwing in the towel

at least its not

speier..

b0rd3rline - April 7, 2009 reply

soth sure has confidence in the offense

he’s warming up bulger

A lot of people are jumping the gun with the BOTG/P talk this season.

Seems kinda hasty.

i dont get it either

not good

When does

salt lake start, thursday?

They start Thursday, just as you said...

at least that is what Ashley told me.

Cool,

thanks

Darren, I thought we talked about this sucking in April thing.

Ump is killing him.

He’s had at least two strikes in the zone called balls. And I mean like not even CLOSE.

get out of the inning Olly

there’s some good news … first BB for the A’s all night. This has been a control gem.

WTF?!

The game’s not over yet. Stop the whining.

WiHaloFan - April 7, 2009 reply

but, but … we can’t hit WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

aaannndddd now it is

caangelsaokay - April 7, 2009 reply

caan and abel gels okay?

clever.

caangelsaokay - April 7, 2009 reply

cool

ughhhhh......

Bob Saget!!!!!!!

lol

Whoops.

Jeebus Christ

Chzburger Jones - April 7, 2009 reply

Lol

the wheels are coming off….come on Bulger?

Gee Scioscia

He was only hitting 600 something against him

MH252525 - April 7, 2009 reply

This is &*$%ing hilarious !!!!!!

“he should have brought in Oliver instead of Jepsen”

a few hits later …

“Duh, Oliver can’t get Giambi out … everybody knows that!”

Why aren’t we the coach?

:)

Uh the guys Jepsen faced don't hit .629 against Oliver

MH252525 - April 7, 2009 reply

oh.

why aren’t you in that dugout, man. Get on it! ;)

Bulger???????

22-35?!!! Yikes. Giambi OWNS Oliver.

Yeesh. Make it 23-36.

it was a good pitch

giambi’s been tough tonight

yeswecan - April 7, 2009 reply

bullpen wasted a rare moseley quality start (not surrendering 8 runs)

princeton11loveshalos - April 7, 2009 reply

and thats it for tonight

adios amigos

ARGH... next in line

You know, for surrendering 15 hits, we're not doing too bad.

Christ

Every time Giambi gets another hit, it’s a punch in the stomach. That piece of shit should be banned from the game, and I have to deal with him damaging my team instead because of a spineless sack of shit in the commish’s office.