Panther of the Game: Joe Saunders
When they ask how the Angels had won so many games without scoring more than 4 runs, you can point to the impenetrable defense and unselfish hitting that were NOT in display in this game, the first in 14 that the Angels scored at least 5 runs.
Oh, and the jawdropping pitcher performances. Yeah, a small part of it all.
Day game tomorrow - 1:40 PM Pacific.
0 recs | 267 comments
frankie for liuentenant panther!
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
i was getting ready to blame hk47...
a couple honorable mentions: krod, izzy
f’ing day games. hopefully i catch the last couple innings tomorro.
NoDakHalo - June 3, 2008
yes, my computer is missing the spacebar and the letter "w"
NoDakHalo - June 3, 2008
No love for Mighty Mouse?
2 hits, 3 RBI’s…? Fangraphs is confusing on this one… Frankie, Dondo, Mighty Mouse, then Saunders… even though he only had 1 ER
Los Angeles de Anaheim - June 3, 2008
To Fangraphs, unearned runs still count for something
Even though it’s not as much as a real run. He was good, but not particularly dominant tonight.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
well thats BS........and it totally blows fangraphs integrity up.....Joe made the pitches he needed to..........the defense just didnt hold up
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
I believe Pedro Martinez said it best:
“I still blame myself- I let the other team hit the ball.”
I’ll grant that he didn’t deserve those runs, but Joe was also allowing guys on base all night, which is the other reason FG gives more credit to K-Rod.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
wait wait, how is 6 hits and 1 walk in 7inn giving up base runners all night?
the two errors also….but of course that isnt his fault
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
Heh.
Point. It seemed like more because of the errors, but your right, he didn’t allow all that many on base. I thought he walked more guys than that.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
and all those runners and hits were in just that one inning pretty much.....thru 5 joe had given up 1 run and 2 hits
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
Best "Win" pic ever...
the colonel dishin’ some ‘stick to his lady.
Red - June 3, 2008
He has that look like
HEY HEY, save some, it isn’t ALL for you…
Rev Halofan - June 3, 2008
AWESOME
win pic
highlandhalo - June 3, 2008
Frankie is a close second.
That’s how you’re supposed to close the game.
red floyd - June 3, 2008
big time
Rev Halofan - June 3, 2008
Now i would love to say........
Q for panther….....3-4 2 runs scored…...but that error negates all that…......Krod gets a very honorable mention for closing the door and K’ng the side…....but JOE deserves it with that huge K to end the rally after 3 unearned runs crossed the plate thanks to shaky defense…....then the 7th he gets em in order to seal the deal…....w00
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
word
NoDakHalo - June 3, 2008
can his nickname
just be Colonel Panther ? he’s earned that nickname
BigBangRobbDawgg - June 3, 2008
I like that.
You could also call the closer P-Rod
melvintoast - June 3, 2008
how bout Colonel Cy panther?
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
Colonel has 5 panthers already.
K-Rod can’t catch a break. So much for jjack’s checklist. Back to the drawing board Franky.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
Fangraphs gives Frankie the highest rating
Los Angeles de Anaheim - June 3, 2008
but the Win pic wouldn't work if we changed the Panther
Los Angeles de Anaheim - June 3, 2008
co panthers?
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
wtf is fangraphs exactly?
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
Statistical probability based on monte carlo simulations.
melvintoast - June 3, 2008
computer yahtzee
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
hey
your son uses monte carlo simulations. Be careful.
RubixsQube - June 3, 2008
you got something against statistical probability in dice?
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
Yeah... It's for dudes who dress up like ewoks or hobbits
with 20 sided dice.
It ain’t reality.
melvintoast - June 3, 2008
Vegas solved the Monte Carlo Strategy
do the millionaire’s dismay….
Rev Halofan - June 3, 2008
It's something for videogame players
I think
highlandhalo - June 3, 2008
And I was about
to come on and post about how that’s how K-Rod gets a Panther.
Sorry, I can’t go w/Saunders. Error or no, he still gave up a bunch of hits and a bunch of runs.
K-Rod struck out the side (on 12 pitches, no less!) in a game that was closer than it should have been.
jjackflash - June 3, 2008
I'm willing to go with Hokie Joe
But was originally going to post Frankie for panther. See my earlier post.
red floyd - June 3, 2008
how is 6 hits in 7 innings? a bunch of hits? and ERA is the only stat that matters.....and Joes is still 2.63
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
K-Rods is 2.08
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
Sexson, Cairo, Betancourt
Murderers Row!
I liked that he struck the side out but Dondo’s inning was against better hitters
hauldog - June 3, 2008
You don't control who you go up against.
K-Rod made sure that the ONLY people he faced were those guys.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
Well it should impact the pantherness of the performance
hauldog - June 3, 2008
When Arredondo K's the side in a one-run game,
I’ll have his back.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
A K is THAT much more impressive than a lazy fly ball?
hauldog - June 3, 2008
It's more fun to watch.
And the defense can’t bungle what isn’t hit.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
Josh Paul says hi. So does GA from today
Burke – Sub 600 OPS
Cairo – Sub 600 OPS
Betancourt – 719 OPS
I am blinded by there awesomeness.
hauldog - June 3, 2008
I expect him to strike those fairies out
hauldog - June 3, 2008
It's the Mariners.
Who isn’t a fairy (besides Ichiro)?
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
that lopez boy has given the angels staff fits
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
So did Sexson last time around.
2 HR game last time Joe pitched, IIRC.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
Which does not strengthen any case for KRod for Panther IMO.
hauldog - June 3, 2008
It doesn't strengthen anyone's case.
A hitter’s a hitter. A homerun counts the same whether it’s Ichiro or Ibanez or Betancourt. K > pop-out > ground-out > flyball > BB > hit. Franky came into a high pressure situation and got 3 Ks.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
joe has pitched 4 times as many innings as Frank has though
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
And Joe has 5 panthers to show for it.
Franky has ZERO.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
lol i didnt make the rules for deciding who gets panther......
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
I'm arguing they're unfair.
If you want who has been a bigger influence on the season, Joe all the way, no question. If you want who was better in THAT GAME, K-Rod, all the way.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
yeah and if you look at my very first post
i said Krod probably deserves it, but i cant argue with Joe getting it either, because if joe doesnt squash that rally and go through the next inning then no way do Dondo and Frankie get the chance to do what they do. soooo do the ends justify the means?
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
those are my thoughts exactly
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
My entire point with this was the argument yesterday
and continuing from last year, when I started arguing that it seemed functionally impossible for K-Rod to get a Panther. Do you realize that he didn’t get one all of last year? 40 saves, 2.89 ERA not one panther. 23 saves this year, not one Panther. I started asking, well, just what DOES he have to do to get a panther? The answer I got was a 1-run game where there wasn’t a clear favorite, 1-2-3 inning, as dominating as possible. The only other way is a 4 out save, which is up to god as far as K-Rod even getting a chance at it.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
yeah wouldnt it get kind of old giving it to frankie everygame?
because we’ve had a lot of one run games…......
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
We've had 5 now where he's closed it.
1 other than this where he went 1-2-3.
I think 2 panthers is fair for the league saves leader.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
and in the other one he only had 1 k
so for the people saying that he needs to have 3 ks, this would be his first panther
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
I, of course,
am well on the record as rejecting all the rules and excuses that so many folks work overtime to come up with in order to deny Frankie his due in this team’s success.
I leave it to Zu to advocate for Frankie tonight.
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
lol im not against ZU by any means....
but i can agree with Rev and see why Joe was picked also.
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
Then you have realized, of course,
that you are falling into the common trap of pitting Frankie against the other 24 guys on the field, wherein anything good any of them do is stacked against Frankie’s requirement to be perfect.
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
That's a really good way of putting it.
Baseball is a game of allowed error. Hitters are expected to miss most of the time, pitchers are expected to give up hits and walks. Part of the reason closing is so tough is that you ARE expected to be perfect. Come out of the gates off your game even a little and your team could lose. The other team is fighting like mad to stay in it, and they’re zeroed in. They know the ump’s zone better than you because they’re in they’re fourth or fifth at bat. They’ve watched you on film a million times because they know you’ll be the last obstacle they face. They know your pitches almost as well as you do. The only things you have going for you is that you are the goddamn FILTHIEST pitcher your team can find, and that you have 8 other guys on the field who are ostensibly there to help you out.
Point is- it’s damn hard to be a closer.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
i cant remember a recent year
where this team has needed the pitching to be as good as it has been…...because the offense has been as bad as it has been.
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
it seemed like 2 or 3 years ago the offense
was terrible, and the pitching had to be perfect to get a W. and the pitching didnt always hold up the entire year
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
2005 was the last time.
Our pitching ruled, and our offense was pure balls. I’m not sure how we scored runs before Kotch and Rivera started getting more time late in the year. You look at that team, and it was Figgins, Vlad, Bengie whenever he wasn’t hurt, Cabrera when we needed a sac fly… and that was IT. That was all we had. Byrd Colon Lackey, and Wash kicked ass, plus Escobar and Santana at home.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
i looked it up and the angels are on pace score less than what the 05 team had......
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
Yeah, but at least this time we have the excuse of injuries to key guys
Plus Vlad underperforming. That year we just blew at scoring runs.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
happened a lot in 05 - 07
usually shields and frankie would come in during tied games instead of protecting a one run lead like they do now. look at how many decisions shields had in the 05 and o6 years. we had a hard time scoring back then too, and our starters didnt go as long as they do now
UCIHalo - June 3, 2008
thank god for stoneman
pitching and defense he realized can carry a ballclub if the sticks arent hot. (also, wow this is really bunched to the right)
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
Switch to Wide setting.
It’s easier to read.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
ahh, that makes more sense
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
Hear hear!
Well said.
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
You're doing a pretty good job yourself.
And I appreciate the help. It’s really nothing against anyone on my part. I like the panther system here, I just wish it had some room for our closer in it, just like everyone else.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
You and I are in danger of creating just enough
support for Frankie to get a Patronizing Panther after an upcoming game, which will actually piss me off.
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
lol
yeah…well…..its all for fun in the end anyways.
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
To be fair, halo91, jjack, and anaheim are making the case as well.
We’re all in this together. :-P
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
Count me in too
I also understand the Rev’s arguments, especially after they Hokie Joe handled the three unearned runs.
But come on. Striking out the side, when the Mo had shifted to the M’s? On 12 pitches? That’s how you close games.
Frankie gets it.
red floyd - June 4, 2008
howabout there be like panther of the week or panther of the month award to remedy this situation, so the k-rod could be eligible
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
thats an damn good idea........
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
That would need to be weighted.
POTG = 1 point
POTW = 3 points
POTM = 10 points
Panther Of The Year is player with most points
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
i like it
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
i like it as well, but there might need to be a slight restructuring of the ponts
as the top panther getter got only 11 panthers, so if one were to get a POTM and only like 2 or three other POTGs, they could concievably win the whole thing with just one great month. also, will there be deducting points for BOTGs?
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
Conceivably, yes.
Vlad carrying the team on his back for an entire month is the kind of thing that is remembered about the season years later. The secondary story might be the guy who had a great season and was instrumental in 11 of 90 wins.
But it ain’t my blog, so I don’t own the rules. Feel free to adjust the points accordingly. It’s not as though there is an open call to change The Panther program at the moment, so this is all just good fun.
And, yeah, BOTG deductions would be appropriate.
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
plus Frankie is making 10 mil this year.......
i doubt he cares about being “panther” lol…....
and plus Joe is making less than .5 mil…........so tell me how thats fair?
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
Franky was making >$300,000
when he carried the bullpen through the 2002 playoffs. How is that fair?
He was making $300,000 when he set a new Angels saves record his first year as closer in 2005. How is that fair?
I’m not worried about K-Rod’s feelings. I’m asking for recognition of his contribution to this team, the same way that I doubt you really think Q cares what people on this site think of his defense.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
i dont think that frankie goes unrecognized on this board.....
but it goes back to the argument that someone made yesterday…......its “expected” of frankie for him to get a 3 out save…....its what he’s paid to do…......whether its fair or not…..that is probably whats going on…....but i can admire your desire and you certainly prove your points well….....which is why its always a good discussion on here with you
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
I know he's expected to get three outs.
But the fact is that when those three outs are always high pressure, and they are always hard to get, and you are better at it than anybody else in the ENTIRE GAME OF BASEBALL, you deserve some recognition every once in a while.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
im sure another AS apperance is in his future
and who knows…..if he keeps this pace up…..probably some CY YOUNG consideration.
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
I mean recognition from US
and you know it. :-P
As far as Cy… we’ll see. He’d need to not only break the saves record but keep being dominant like tonight, plus he’d need Joe and Ervin and whoever else to not get 20+ wins or he’s cooked.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
well i appreciate it
even though sometimes he is scary on the mound…...i do love the way he took it to the M’s today, i wish everygame was like that…....but like i said in my first post…...he was “very honorable” mention for me for panther
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
Ok, I cannot resist.
When Howie comes up to bat, do you ever EXPECT him to NOT get a hit?
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
If the pitcher has a good curveball
then… yes.
Rev Halofan - June 3, 2008
Actually
I expect Howie NOT to get a hit at least 60 percent or more of the time.
Frankie, I expect to close out the game and get the last three outs. For $15 million a year, he had damn well better not induce so many freaking heart attacks because Arredondo is starting to show that there is someone else waiting in the wings who can get 3 outs in an inniing.
The only thing Billy Beane was right on on Moneyball is that closers are over-rated (and yes, before any of you smartasses tell me that Billy Beane didn’t write Moneyball he might as well have as much as the writer sucked his jank).
highlandhalo - June 3, 2008
No, no. Wrong answer.
I am not asking what you expect over the average. I am asking what you expect any particular time he comes to the plate. For example, when he steps up tomorrow for his first at-bat, do expect that bat to be part of the 40% or part of the 60%?
(By the way, it appears as though your high is wearing off…)
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
maybe closers ARE overrated.
But I look at Street’s godawful save% and the margin of victory in this division the past 5 years, and I think… oh really?
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
this isnt about money
if you had a-rod and paid him 30 mil a year and he goes 5-5 with 2 Hrs in the same game that 350k S-rod goes 3-4 with 2 singles and a double and 2 RBIs, the panther goes to a-rod not because he gets paid more, but because he played better. the better players almost always get paid more, so the usual panthers will probably be paid more than the rest of the team
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
Not to mention that Rookies
are always paid league minimum.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
well technically the club chooses the salary
but why pair more to a player than you have to, so the will always make minimum. actually, this is not for sure, but ryan bruan might have been paid slightly more than mininum (i think to get him to like the brewers more and stay there longer)
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
enter Evan Longoria...
howiestheman - June 3, 2008
actaully, he did get 1 panther last year
http://www.halosheaven.com/2007/10/2/11720/7954
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
No he didn't
You’re looking at blames. Scroll up.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
o damn, your right. my bad
but what i am sure about is that the angels won all 6 of his blown saves last year
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
Yes.
That one is correct. In fact, we still haven’t lost a game where we handed K-Rod the lead in the 9th since 2006, I think. He’s blown some of the saves, but we always pick him up it seems.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
3 hits
in the 5th. He retired the 1st two in order, then put two men into scoring position, and yielded another hit besides. Yeah, there was a pair of errors, but Saunders still allowed 3 baserunners of his own that inning. It’s still only a 1-run inning if he gets Vidro.
jjackflash - June 3, 2008
Props for holding to what you say then. ^_^
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
KRod and Dondo Co-panthers
SoCalWine - June 3, 2008
K-Rod for panther!
1 run lead. Strikes out the side. Nails!
If he can’t win for that, he’ll never win.
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
100% agree
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
k rod has given up 2 hits in the past 8.2 innings
with 11 Ks. although that also comes with 7 walks, which sorta tarnishes that
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
And look at this... Tied for best record in the AL
melvintoast - June 3, 2008
OK, I saw the smoke coming from the fireworks....
But where’s the mirrors?
red floyd - June 3, 2008
There are no smoke or mirrors where Joe Maddon is involved
It was only a matter of time til that guy was a success
highlandhalo - June 3, 2008
I meant for us
Given our (lack of) offense.
red floyd - June 4, 2008
yeah i agree...it must be changed!
honorable mention should go to hokie joe and izzy, but krod pitched perfect.
NoDakHalo - June 3, 2008
i vote for mice tits
halofan4life - June 3, 2008
Izzy and the 2 out 2 RBI single get my vote
hauldog - June 3, 2008
I just found out Joe makes 425,000 this year...
hes gonna get PAID soon…....what a bargain
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
Joe Joe Joe.
Impressive display of composure on Joe’s part, even though the 2 errors lead to 3 runs in the 5th. No f-bombs, no grimaces, no “WTF was that??” look. Kept his cool and came back out and pitched a great 6th and 7th.
Disturbing pic. You know, there is a nest of spiders in that beehive hairdo.
Fan Since 1981 - June 3, 2008
Don't get me wrong.
I love Hokie Joe. Yet somehow, though the two errors weren’t his fault, he did give up a hit in-between. And Frankie performed perfectly (no one even hit the ball) in a one-run game, the closest game he could. What can a closer do if he can’t win for that?
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
my vote
still goes to frankie. he earned this one. you ungrateful people! lmao.
b0rd3rline - June 3, 2008
Frankie
Thought for sure he’d get his first tonight. McSquinty threw the kitchen sink at him and he hiked up his plumber’s pants and K’d the side. On 12 pitches.
That’s going above and beyond.
ReggieBullits - June 3, 2008
Cumulative
I know Panther is for a single game, but 23 saves out of 24 opportunities is pretty amazing, no matter how you define a save. I know the Rev thinks closers should perfect (not that Frankie has always been perfect) and don’t deserve Panthers for just doing their job, but that is a pretty high (and unfair) bar. So when the closer IS perfect, in a close game no less, after he has dominated all year, it seems this is the time!
Frankie, Frankie, Frankie!
(I also agree that we are going to be sorry if/when Frankie is gone. We are sooooo spoiled.)
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
if Dondo keeps pitching like he is
then Frankie wont be missed too much
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
It takes more than one man to make a bullpen
hauldog - June 3, 2008
I STILL miss Percy.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
So do I. A lot. I watch a lot of Tampa this year
Do not get me wrong about this panther stuff. I am a HUGE Frankie guy.
hauldog - June 3, 2008
Arguing doesn't = animosity for me.
Disagreement is what keeps the game interesting. ;-)
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
I've reconsidered my vote.
Hokie Joe gets an honorable mention. Frankie deserved a panther for this one.
red floyd - June 3, 2008
Cmon Red!
Honestly? For one inning of work? FFS.
highlandhalo - June 3, 2008
Two sub 600 OPS hitters and 719 OPS hitter
Really?
Burke – Cairo – Betancourt
Jesus that is a pathetic group.
hauldog - June 3, 2008
How about Mathis?
On a team of allegedly free swingers…. THREE walks? Hud was joking that they were afraid of him after last night’s dinger.
Oh, and to rub it in for the M’s fans…. That Bedard trade looks real good …. if you’re not playing the Angels!
red floyd - June 3, 2008
true Mathis is getting on base any way he can.......and that is great considering he is barely at the mendoza line
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
SAUNDERS ALL THE WAY
7 IP, 1 ER – that is Panther territory all the way … but going above and beyond in the 6th inning, error-filled as it was to get a gutsy strikeout and come back in the 7th inning to go 1-2-3 on them. It was the GUTS in the face of adversity (errors) that gave Joe the Pamther.
Nothing at all against Frankie, but a Quality start is 6 IP, 3 ER, so Joe blew that stat out of the water – Saunders’ performance tonight is the equivalent of Frankie entering in the 8th with a man on 2nd, one out and getting the 5-Out Save in a 1-Run game.
Rev Halofan - June 3, 2008
cant argue with that one bit.......infact....i said pretty much the same thing in my first comment in the postgame thread tonight
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
I disagree
That biases the system too heavily in favor of a starter. There’s a reason a great closer can get paid as much (or almost as much) as a great starter, which is: it’s not just the rate of runs per inning (or outs) it is the fact that he has to do it EVERY NIGHT! Yes, the three runs or less rule means some saves are not so high pressure, but comparing what Frankie is doing this year to other closers, it is clear he is overall dominant, yet the rules the Rev has set up strongly favor starters over relievers. Even worse, a hitter who gets a big hit can win, even though one might argue that getting a game winning hit with runners on is what a hitter is SUPPOSED to do.
The only fix for this might be the POG, POW, POM that was suggested above, but I suggest that Frankie would still lose out because I suspect that many on this board (including the Rev) just don’t value what closers do very much.
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
it is called PANTHER ... not ROBOT or CALCULATOR
living, breathing, situational, reactive … it is a gut award, not a fibonacci sequence across the gaussin parabola…
Rev Halofan - June 3, 2008
Sorry but
you were the one who tried to make a statistical comparison of what a closer had to do compared to Hokie Joe’s night:
“a Quality start is 6 IP, 3 ER, so Joe blew that stat out of the water – Saunders’ performance tonight is the equivalent of Frankie entering in the 8th with a man on 2nd, one out and getting the 5-Out Save in a 1-Run game.”
I was just responding to that. A 5-out save in a 1-run game is more like a 2-hit shutout than a quality start. In fact, to compare to your idea that we EXPECT a 1-2-3 save from Frankie every time, I expect a quality start from every starter every time.
As for gut feeling, I came away after the game feeling that Frankie had just nailed down a VERY close game that we could easily have lost. That coupled with what he has done all year, means he should be Panther.
In any case, I (and others) believe you have created a system where it is virtually impossible for Frankie to get a Panther (he didn’t get a single on last year, apparently) whereas he is clearly an extremely major contributor to our success. I would argue that is a flaw in the system.
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
actually, frankie did get 1 panther
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
Oh
Someone above said he didn’t and I didn’t check. My bad.
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
You were right to believe me the first time. ;-)
AA misread the standings.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
i profusely apologize
i guess i was too fast with the scroll for my own good
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
It's cool.
It’s just that I remember very well making an impassioned plea for just 1 K-rod Panther last year after he hit 40 saves for a third consecutive season.
Zu Long - June 4, 2008
i dont think i was really into the blog last year
that might be why i didnt remember that.
i remember that i knew about this, and if i found it, then i would maybe poke around or something. i knew of the panther though already. i think i got reallly into HH right before the switch to the SB network
anaheim angels - June 4, 2008
NO He didn't.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
But having said all that
Panther of the game is a lot of fun! Thanks, Rev, for creating this forum for us to argue about our favorite sport.
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
i agree. although the panther still has a few slight kinks
it is still alot better than not having a panther
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
Thanks
If we did not have kick-ass, lights out starting pitching these things would be more evened out – and actually, this WAS a team under .500 so maybe that diminishes ALL pitching domination…...
Rev Halofan - June 3, 2008
And not just any under .500 team.
The worst team in the AL and possibly baseball.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
But, but...
But, the M’s were supposed to win the West this year!!! Just ask anyone at LL!!!!
red floyd - June 4, 2008
7 IP, 1 ER = 5-Out Save in a 1-Run game?
That looks like some flimsy suppositioning going on there…
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
well if you look at it by numbers
0 runs in 5 outs…....
1 run in 21 outs…........i would say thats more impressive
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
Rev's math said they were equal.
I didn’t say it. I merely summarized…
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
To be more specific
If both performances happened in the same game THEN Frankie would get the Panther.
Rev Halofan - June 3, 2008
even if the game ended 1-0????
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
Therefore, we have a NEW equation?
WAS:
7 IP, 1 ER = 5-Out Save in a 1-Run game
NOW IS:
7 IP, 1 ER < 5-Out Save in a 1-Run game.
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
Joe Cy-nders looked solid yet again
AHaloInSF - June 3, 2008
holy crap Q is hitting .300
looks like he just earned himself another start
UCIHalo - June 3, 2008
he is 8-11 in his last three starts......
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
by the way, guys...
we have just won our sixth series in a row!
given the lack of offense, that’s incredible.
heck, even if we had an abundance offense… that’s incredible
howiestheman - June 3, 2008
yeah......
thats pretty impressive…....no matter how inept the O is…...
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
But even more impressive
How many teams would go 9-4 when they can’t score much?
gilbert - June 3, 2008
shouldn't it the 7th?
I thought that I heard the announcers saying it was our 6th when we won Sunday.
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
overall this year we are 12-3-3 for a series record
thats pretty freakin impressive
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
oakland and det.......bot 11 still 4-4
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
I love how so many fan sites are NEGATIVE
and HERE at HH, we are arguing passionately about which Angel deserves the highest praise
Rev Halofan - June 3, 2008
well if the halos had just lost their 6th straight series.........
it might be a bit more negative methinks
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
Maybe.
It depends. I always try to focus on the positive.
I was okay with the way 2006 was looking after May (7 games under .500) because I knew we had talent coming up and I didn’t mind waiting for it to mature.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
Good perspective
I was focused on what the talent we had was NOT doing.
hauldog - June 3, 2008
XD
There’s always that. I was really disappointed with Finley. Thought he was a smart cheap pickup. I ate a LOT of crow on that one.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
Wait, Finley was 2005 still.
2006 was Weaver, who I did not like. Plus Izturis was hurt, and Kotch turned out to have Mono, etc.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
2006 a bad first two months
June was sick IIRC. We had the best record in baseball from june 1 on I believe.
hauldog - June 3, 2008
Yup.
I’ve sometimes wondered which June was better- 2006 because the starters dominated so much, or 2007 because we had Willits, Figgins, Kotch, OC and Vlad all on fire at the same time.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
It is nice to be different that way.
And even when we disagree, life long hatreds are not formed. We just let it go ‘til next time.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
I was just thinking the same thing
We are so blessed, we don’t even know it. This team is winning and winning even though
1) Our best hitter is in the worst slump of his career
2) Our lead off hitter, the best in the majors, is on the DL
3) Our young hitting phenom just got back from the DL and has not refound his hitting stroke yet
4) Our best starter was out for the first 6 weeks of the season and
5) Our second best starter (at least from last year; now I am not so sure) is still out and may never pitch again (though it is looking better)
Amazing!
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
Positivity
I think baseball fans more than any other sport have to be positive. Even if this team has an unbelievable season, they’re going to lose at least 60 games. That’s a lot of losses.
gilbert - June 3, 2008
My wife always complains
that baseball fans (me, my father) are inveterate pessimists (“he’s going to strike out!” “Frankie just walked another one!” “I know we’re going to lose this game!”). It comes from following a sport where hitters who fail 7 out of 10 times are great, and where losing 60-65 games is a great season. If you don’t remain positive, you’ll go crazy. Luckily, the Angels this year look pretty good, and we get to be positive way more than we have to be negative (those poor Mariner saps!)
Isn’t baseball the greatest?
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
said perfectly
UCIHalo - June 3, 2008
i get that same thing all the time from my girlfriend
i also hear “well then why do you watch it so much if you’re always mad?”
i love this game…
howiestheman - June 3, 2008
I literally laughed out loud when I read that!
THAT was Panther
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
i get the same thing. my lady always says that i take the fun out of it
UCIHalo - June 3, 2008
Yeah, when you look at those 5 things
the fact that we’ve been this good is astounding. Remember how K-Rod and Shields were hurt at the beginning of the year as well, and it wasn’t clear K-Rod’s if ankles would need surgery?
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
Very well said
highlandhalo - June 3, 2008
is it just me, or is Robb Quinlan the Luke Walton of the Hålos?
every time he’s got the ball in his hands I wince and cringe.
gdog009 - June 3, 2008
oh... and Frankie es el Pantera del mundo.
gdog009 - June 3, 2008
Perfect analogy.
The inconsistency, lack of athleticism, and every now and then he plays lights out.
melvintoast - June 3, 2008
hes always been a pretty solid hitter.........and his defense isnt outstanding by any means....
but more often than not…..he gets the job done
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
And he's actually not that bad
We never want him to play, but when he does, he doesn’t screw up that badly in the grand scheme of things, and helps more than we give him credit for.
gilbert - June 3, 2008
they sound a lot alike too
UCIHalo - June 3, 2008
the A's came back and won in the bottom of the 11th......lame
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
Jack Cust, infield hit? WTF?
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
He made contact?
gilbert - June 3, 2008
I swear
Billy Beane has some kind of black magic, or sold his soul to the devil or something. I just can never figure out how those guys win so damn much.
And yet, I am not really that worried. They can’t possibly keep it up.
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
thats what we said about the mariners last year
and they didnt got away until the last couple weeks of the season
UCIHalo - June 3, 2008
yeah that last inning was filled with a bunch of weird plays.....leave it to the kitties to figure out how to lose a game they were up 3-0
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
Hokie Joe IS awesome
Having touted Frankie for Panther, I do have to admit I love how Hokie Joe has come into this own this year. His steelyl nerves are awesome, and the change from a competition between him and Black Magic for 5th starter to a competition for top starter in the AL is amazing (and great!)
Of course, the lack of love for the Angels in the mainstream media continues. I looked at all the major sites for a story on how Hokie Joe is the first 9-game winner in the AL, but all I found was crap about how Joba the Hutt couldn’t make it out of the 3rd inning! Finally, on Yahoo Sports I found the AP story with this quote:
“Using a sweeping curve and well-placed fastballs, he struck out five and walked one while lowering his ERA to 2.63. Saunders, who has yet to pitch an entire season in the major leagues, has allowed one or no earned runs in six of 12 starts this season.
Not bad for a $425,000 salary.”
Pretty f’ing amazing! So, even if I don’t think Hokie Joe should get Panther for tonight, he is the greatest!
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
i think cliff lee has 9 wins as well........
not that it matters…....
norcaliangelsfan - June 3, 2008
Cliff Lee 8-1
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
Frankie Panther supporters = Hillary Supporters
Never gonna give up shouting, even when your candidate has clearly lost.
Not to say I don’t appreciate Frankie, or for that matter, Hillary. But to the point:
Saunders faced serious adversity in this game, and as a young pitcher said “F you” and mastered it. Two errors in one inning, and he comes back out to pitch two more innings? Seriously?
Lackey didn’t pitch like that in adversity for years. That kind of inning is what made Kelvim a .500 pitcher for a couple of seasons.
Saunders may not quite have Lackey or Escobar stuff, but his makeup is nails. Nails, dude, nails.
101halo - June 3, 2008
that inning when he had to get 5 outs and it ended with a K was a big statement
UCIHalo - June 3, 2008
Yes. Totally agree.
Frankie was amazing tonight. But Saunders pitched through crap ass defense in order to even GET the ball to Frankie. Keep that in mind, people.
101halo - June 3, 2008
Ah yes, that...
Keep equally in mind that ‘Donde and Frankie made Joe’s Panther possible, because they ensured a Halo victory. It being a team sport and all.
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
Actually a really valid point
Especially considering I worried from the moment that Saunders gave up the ball that he wouldn’t get the win because the bullpen would give it up.
Definitely a tough call… and like I said below I really respect how dominant Frankie was tonight, but I gotta go for Saunders tonight.
101halo - June 3, 2008
Again, this is something of a continuation of what is percieved to be a flaw in the Panther system by a few of us.
The argument isn’t Franky was a clearly better candidate, but rather that if Franky DOESN’T win for this, then how the hell does he win, ever?
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
Saunders didn't pitch a normal 7.
He faced tough odds with the crappy defense. Again, similar to a Frankie 4 out save. Honestly, without those two errors in the game, we probably win 5-1, and Frankie doesn’t even pitch. Or if Saunders let’s those errors get to him, he allows another run or two, and Frankie doesn’t even get a save opportunity.
101halo - June 3, 2008
Franky didn't pitch a normal 9th.
He has no control of the circumstances upon entering the 9th inning. He must simply do his job once it gets there. And he did it the best HE POSSIBLY COULD tonight. Joe was not the best he could possibly be tonight. I recognize that Joe pitched well and got out of a tough jam, but I repeat the question: if not for tonight then how the hell does Franky win it? In the past year and a half there have been four 1-run games where Franky had a 1-2-3 9th (including this one). K-Rod has not recieved a panther for any of them. Last time was April 25th. Kotch got the Panther for 2 RBI and a nice defensive play.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
Nicely said
We are getting hung up on comparing pitchers, but I think the Revs rule that a Panther is never for what is expected, only for the above and beyond, but hitters often win for something you might expect (a game winning hit).
To follow up on the Rev’s point that Panther is a gut thing, I think of it almost as a synonym for “Awesome!” except even more so. Well, in my book, striking out the side to win a 1-run game is pretty awesome on a totally gut level, almost as good as a game winning hit in the bottom of the ninth.
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
It's the defensive equivalent, actually.
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
I'll agree with that.
hauldog - June 3, 2008
Man, that's insulting.
Hillary supporters? It ain’t like we Frankie supporters are making stuff up.
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
Haha as a big Obama supporter
I’m definitely with you… but trying to be as reconciliatory as Obama was tonight, despite Hillary’s rant about still being relevant.
101halo - June 3, 2008
Oh god
let’s not start a Hillary/Obama subthread. I am almost as obsessed with politics as with baseball and I could SO go off on Hillary. But it would ruin the buzz over the Halos latest win and this awesome argument over which of our pitchers is the most bad-ass.
If you stop and think about it, how cool is that?
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
Concur with both of you.
But back to baseball…
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
I agree
Saunders is amazing (see my post above). I guess it is just that the current system doesn’t allow the closer a chance, and we have one of the best (if not the best) closers in the game.
Having said that: Hillary supporters? That stings. I am an Obama supporter who has been really pissed at how she has hung on.
Oh, well, I guess we’ll have to wait for that mythical 4-out save. As has been said above, it is all in good fun anyhow.
Go Angels!
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
Hillary is waiting for an 8-out save.
I’m an huge Obama supporter, which is why I thought it an apt comparison. Don’t be pissed she hung on. The competition allowed all 50 states to voice their opinions. Be pissed she did so while making up all kinds of BS that had no basis in reality (i.e. that she won the popular vote, which is far from the truth).
101halo - June 3, 2008
OMG, I almost peed my pants on that one!
That was awesome!
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
To be clear
I meant the 8-out save comment. I have to tell my wife that one (she was a big Hillary supporter).
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
I officially recommend you don't.
Don’t reason with that. Just ask the question of preference between Obama and McCain. Makes it easier for Hillary supporters to stomach Obama.
101halo - June 3, 2008
You guys need to read this
A Sports Parable.
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
Haha that's hilarious.
I actually watched the whole DNC RBC meeting on Saturday morning from my bed.
I also actually considering clawing my eyes out multiple times. I lose faith in our country on a regular basis.
...but nowhere near as often as Rob loses faith in the Angels.
Go Halos!
101halo - June 3, 2008
Didn't the guy who finished the 30-3 football game last year
for Texas, get credit for a save, since he pitched 3 innings?
red floyd - June 4, 2008
yeah wes littleton
if you pitch the final 3 innings in a game, or come in with the tying run on deck or a three run or less lead, and finish the game and are not eligable for the win, then it is a save
anaheim angels - June 4, 2008
are we gonna need an overflow thread
for this one?
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
Holy Panther post gone crazy thread
I looked at the comments and thought this was the game post.
I have read all the posts. My conclusion:
Saunders for Panther (leads league with 9 wins now too).
Krod for 17mil/yr 5yr contract.
vladtheimpaler - June 3, 2008
thats a lot to pay a closer
i think there has to be limits on what you can pay a player who dosent play every day
UCIHalo - June 3, 2008
i think i wold be fine with a 12 million a year salary.
but id take 17 over 5 years if ninja also managed to get rid of HGH.
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
I give you one HGH plus 5 million?
Save 5 million. 12 million plus 5 million = 17mil. Works.
vladtheimpaler - June 3, 2008
12?
The bar has been sent higher than that. He more Rivera-esque (15 per) than Franciso Cordero-esque (11.5 per). Unfortunately I think it is going to be 60 over 4….
hauldog - June 4, 2008
id be fine with 60/4
anaheim angels - June 4, 2008
Less than Hunter is making.
If we were to go straight up, who do you take first over the next five years, I think I’d honestly go with the 26 year old elite closer over the 32 old pretty good CF (though Torii has certainly been nails this season).
Zu Long - June 4, 2008
and he helps with the glove too
anaheim angels - June 4, 2008
I was referring to both offense and defesive capabilities.
Zu Long - June 4, 2008
Now for the tough one
Let’s say NY offers Frankie 18/5. Frankie says: If the Angels offer 17/5, I will take it. What would you do.
Assumptions: Frankie keeps it up and has 60 saves and below 2 ERA.
vladtheimpaler - June 4, 2008
Ooops, meant this for Anaheim
vladtheimpaler - June 4, 2008
ooo, id be fine with teh angels paying 17 mil for frankie
but id feel alot better if they unloaded some payroll. well actually, judy comes off the books at the end of the year. i dont see him being resigned, so that frees up 9 Mil or so. so yeah, id tell the angels to do 17. but 18 at the uttermost max, not even if HGH leaves as part of it would i give him 19 a year
anaheim angels - June 4, 2008
If he keeps getting saves at this pace
And with his league leading saves over the past few years. Who the hell knows what he could get from someone in need.
vladtheimpaler - June 3, 2008
As a Frankie supporter
I now gracefully concede and go to bed. Have a great night all.
As Rory Markus says, “Just another Halo victory”.
Get out the brooms tomorrow! Go Angels!
halofan91 - June 3, 2008
on the dodgers blog site the most commented thing on their front page has 40 comments
todays gamethread has a whopping 2 comments, 1 of them by me. there are also game threads with 0 comments. have they given up that early in LA?
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
no no no
the problem ofr the SBN Dodger blog was A) it was the final SBN baseball blog B) Dodger Thughts had already assembled a critical mass of posters C) I think I recall the original True Blue LA guy split and so they almost had to start that blog from scratch after its very late debut.
Actually a good stat site for you slide-rule crowd…
Rev Halofan - June 3, 2008
K-Rod
Frankly, all a starting pitcher [LACKEY, WEAVER, SAUNDERS, maybe Judy] has to do is have a quality start or a start leading to a win to be Panthers.
Those guys can ideally pitch 6 or 7 innings, allow four or five runs and still get Panthers without no objection, objective stats be damned in case they aren’t dominant for any particularl start.
I think the three are kind of like the alpha figures on the roster and face of the franchise types people would point to first.
It is a guy like K-Rod who has to go ‘above and beyond’ with this extraordinary performance BS before he can be considered for being honorary co-panther or panther runner up – but never an outright panther.
BBFan1 - June 3, 2008
Saunders allowed 1ER.
I’m not going to go all troll on you and suggest you didn’t watch the game, but Saunders really, truly, only allowed 1ER. There are a lot of times when the starters are the ones committing the errors which lead to unearned runs, and in that event, I’m with you. But Saunders tonight went a step further. He said screw the errors, I’m going to go a few extra innings anyway.
Without the errors, I think we might’ve seen Saunder’s 1st complete game. He didn’t use the errors as an excuse, and continued to pitch his game. Gotta love that.
101halo - June 4, 2008
One other K-Rod argument though:
A point I brought up earlier is that K-Rod has no Panther’s while Joe has 5. Joe will have another chance to earn himself a panther in 5 games. K-Rod’s next opportunity is whenever the gods will it, given that the only time he’s even eligible is in a 1-run save situation. It’s impossible to say when the next such situation may be. It might be tomorrow. It might be in a month. Given that he’s at least close in performance this time, I feel like the rarity of his opportunities plus the totality of his contribution to the cause this year (23 saves in 24 chances, most in the MLB, 0 panthers thus far) pushes him over the top in this case.
Zu Long - June 4, 2008
well, actually his next 1 run save opp was about...
15 minutes ago. but yeah, i see your point
anaheim angels - June 4, 2008
To add to the above
The main reason there have been so many starter panthers this year is that they truly have been unspeakably good, while the offense has languished. While K-Rod v Saunders is the main argument here, I feel for Izturis, whose 3 RBI tonight were clutch and awesome and the main reason we exceeded 4 runs for the first time in two weeks.
Zu Long - June 4, 2008
Find me the instance where a Starting pitcher had LESS than a QS and got a Panther
Find it, BBFan1 and point it out as I am calling you out here and now as being full of shit until you do.
Rev Halofan - June 4, 2008
The momentum of this thread is winding down like an old clock.
I look forward to some fresh hacktastic takes tomorrow as the curious wander in to see what all the fuss was about in a post-game entry!
Stirrups - June 4, 2008
Yeah
I have to get up in 4 hours, so I think I’m going to leave this for the morning birds to pick over tomorrow.
Zu Long - June 4, 2008
Panther 2 the Halos !!!
I was on the road, and unable to watch the game!!! Traffic on the I-10 sucked, go OBAMA and ANGELS !!!! ( I completely believe in both)!!!!!
halofolife - June 4, 2008
Only if he takes Hill vp
or were walking.
vladtheimpaler - June 4, 2008
I heard he is going with Cheney...
;P
Downing Rules - June 4, 2008
That is SO messed up
It took me like 40 min to find out what ;P meant.
vladtheimpaler - June 5, 2008
GIVE IT TO FRANKIE
FIN.
calikraze - June 4, 2008
In case you like a little schadenfreude with your nightcap...
...the atmosphere is maudlin over at LL:
“this game was the first two months of our season condensed and wrapped up in a neat little package with a gray tattered bow and a tag that reads “TO: HUGE IDIOT” and a scratch-n-sniff sticker that smells like old cheese for some reason. As nutshells go, this one was pretty complete”
The Limey - June 4, 2008
If I may take up a SABR in order to cleave POTG...
HokieJoe:
GeneralClutchiness+ComposureAsAllHellBreaksLoose = 0.52 Panther
Frankie:
VintageVINTAGEFrankie+StrikeOutTheSide = 0.48 Panther
...and what the hell, an extra 0.10 Panther to Izzy. So, I get the Frankie sympathy and we may all have the bitteryest pill to swallow should he return next year and hang these kind of performances on us for, say (as previously suggested, and quite possible) EvilEmpire!
LUVtheLAA - June 4, 2008
Enough BITCHING...
lay down your vote and be done with it.
MY VOTE: FRANCISCO RODRIGUEZ
Downing Rules - June 4, 2008
i'm telling you Rev...
you should have a voting system in place immediately after games. 2 or 3 candidates per.
SCHalo - June 4, 2008
voiting?
this is the revs website he makes the rules dont like it make your own site….holy shit that was alot of bitching over the panther….the fact of the matter is the starters get the credit no matter what thats life…...and who ever has the kid playing the dice game…either take the dice away or put him into some type of self defense class.
surfpunk - June 4, 2008
voting...by the way
surfpunk - June 4, 2008
poll it
calikraze - June 4, 2008
Here's how Frankie gets the panther:
He comes into a game where the team is leading by one run in a high scoring game, say 11-10. Clearly, the previous pitching has sucked. Clearly, unless it’s GA freakout night, one person has not carried the offense.
Frankie comes in and avoids drama, gets 3 outs and closes it out. That’s when he gets a panther.
Carl Johnson - June 4, 2008
Not necessarily.
Could be that the mop-up guys blew it. after a good job by the starter. That happened in a game last year (April 21). Bart pitched 7 innings of 1 -run ball, and the Angels spotted him 7 runs in the bargain. Oliver+Shields managed to give up 5 runs in the 8th, necessitating Franky in the 9th. 2Ks, perfect inning, but Bart gets the Panther because he went 7 innings, 1 run.
Zu Long - June 4, 2008
also, scoring 11 runs mean someone had to be on fire
and id take a 4-5 night with 3+RBIs over a BB-rod save (for panther) any night of the week. obviously in reality id prefer a save tho since it means we won. but the truth of it is, Frankie faces about 4 batters in the game (3 outs and a WHIP of 1+=4 batters/inning roughly). A batter gets 4 ABs every game. If a batter gets onbase 4 times (even if they are all singles) he made roughly the same contribution k-rod did. but it also varies, did he hit HR, were there risp (although you cant penalize someone for the suckiness of the batters in front of him), how did he do in the field. The only time K-rod should be in contention for panther is if no batter had a great game, and the starter didnt pitch amazingly. Its just the role of a closer that the team had to have at least one player playing good to be up in the 9th inning. yes, its a little unfair for the closer, but K-rod will make 15-17 Million next year, which is 15-17 million more than im gonna make next year (probably) so i dont think hell care that much (no offense rev)
anaheim angels - June 4, 2008
You are closing in on the Flaw Of The Panther.
If the Halos don’t have the lead, Frankie doesn’t play (excluding mop-up roles where he is used just to give him some work).
And the only way the Halos have the lead is for:
a) at least one player on offense to do something positive
b) probably at least one pitcher to do something positive.
c) possibly at least on player on defense to do multiple positive things.
Therefore, Frankie is not even in contention until at least 1 or more other players randomly drawn from the rest of the roster do something good.
The next step is to look back at past selections, and the rationale behind those selections, and the defense given recently for that rationale, and realize that the bar for Frankie is quite high compared to the bar for the other players. For example, a 2-hit game can win it for a hitter, or even a 1-hit game if that hit comes in a late-enough inning. But Frankie’s challenge is that the expectation for him is to be perfect for at least 3 batters. His window for standing out is very narrow.
The result of this is that our measure of excellence, The Panther, has completely failed to recognize the value of his ability to shorten games over the past year and a third. The guy is an All-Star player. The most successful closer in all of baseball over the past few years. A potential HOF’er if he keeps this up, and the probable record holder for career saves. But if the several of us did not stand up and start bitching about the inbalance in the system, he could go his entire career without The Panther.
Stirrups - June 4, 2008
true
but would a multi panther system fix this injustice? because i just dont see any real other alternative. there could be a panther and lieutenant panther(s) or something for half credit.
anaheim angels - June 4, 2008
There is a place for logic
it is not here.
Panther is emotion.
Forget how to think and learn how to cheer.
Rev Halofan - June 5, 2008
fair enough
anaheim angels - June 5, 2008
Shezzus.
I thought I had the wrong thread when I came in here and saw how long it was…
scottnak - June 4, 2008
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