Better D might be the reason our pitching has been so good though.
If you buy that Wood gets Lopez’ hit, that one less run for them. But I understand what you mean. Q has been exactly what we needed him to be (a good backup player) which is more than most of our players can say.
league leading 22nd save in a perfect 1-2-3 outing. he is 22-23 in save chances. this dude not only deserves a panther, but it is a crime that he hasnt gotten one yet. we are 25-26 in games this dude has pitched in. in 24 innings he hasnt even given up a HR yet! although ervin definitely derserves props, a panther HAS to be in line for frankie
so what if he is playing for a contract. he is still putting up monster numbers
the truth is, 99% of all major leaguers (check that, all athletes) play for a contract. that is why there is free agency and stuff. also, juan had 1 AB and is considered a panther, vlad has faced 88 batters, and only 12! have gotten hits. dont blame him for only coming in after a game is won. he is pitching exceptionally, and he deserves at the very least to be considered for a panther
crazy headache, took like 4 advil and 2 aleve plus icing my forhead to be able to watch the game. anyway, vlad is supposed to be frankie. frankie has faced 88 batters. actually 91 now including tonight
that Q has done better than expected…....since he isnt an everday guy…he went 3/4 and 2/3 the last two starts…. with a RBI tonight…....but he has had no mention of POTG
i was just throwing that out there…......i personally think that Frankie is way more important than Q only for the fact that once Figgy gets healthy…...Q will be on the pine again…..Frankie will still be utilized way more than Q….....but since Q is making his impact when no one expects it…..its a little more larger “right now” but in no way am i mitigating what Frankie’s role on this ball club is…....Q might be responsible for a few wins here and there…..but Frankie will be more responsible for this team winning a pennant and championship.
Once again, you expect me to make sense today. Wait until tomorrow.
I was pointing out that the bar is very low for hitters. You had already pointed out that the bar was way too high for relievers.
My theory, overall, is that fans believe that the closer means that the game should be over, so they start taking their cues from earlier events in the game and begging the closer to merely put the seal on their existing opinion of the game story.
The only way Frankie gets a save is if he comes in during the 7th game of the WS, up 1-0, bases loaded and nobody out, and strikes out the side on something less than 9 pitches.
My personal take on a Frankie Panther is that he has to do something exceptional. It doesn’t take much to save a game coming in to start the inning, with a 3-run lead. He could face as many as eight batters and still do the job. Just about every pitcher in the major leagues can accomplish that. So, no Panther unless it’s a 1-run game to start the ninth.
Any 4+ out save is an immediate Panther contender.
To qualify, a 3-out save must result in nobody reaching base safely – 3 up, 3 down.
Panther for a save lasting less than 3 outs when entering into a highly leveraged situation – at least one runner on base. The more runners on, the better the chance of a panther. The closer the runner is to scoring when Frankie enters, the better the chance of getting a panther if the runner doesn’t score.
Those are a few parameters that guide my voting, anyway.
Exaggeration, of course. Hence the 3K's using less than 9 pitches.
But the principal remains.
I do not believe that the team on offense, behind but close and in their final at-bat, approaches that chance with anything near how they approach other innings and other situations. In the case of the final at-bat there is nothing to lose, so everything and the kitchen sink are possibly tossed at the pitcher. This is not the environment in which every pitcher in the major leagues is asked to contend, much less thrive.
In fact, when a team goes down in the 9th 1-2-3, the common description for that effort is “weak”, as in “they went down weakly”. So your requirement might actually presume that the offense (manager included, based on his substitution choices or non-choices) surrenders. Not saying that this is the case, just pointing out the opposing consideration.
Increasing the difficulty is the fact that the closer has almost no tolerance for finding the ump’s strike zone for that particular game. This means that the closer is required to be near perfect from the very first pitch, while pitching blind (metaphorically). All pitchers face this problem, but only closers have zero margin for error. Starters can yield a couple of runs and take a few innings to figure it out, and they can still qualify for a Quality Start. BY your measures, the close has blown POTG.
It is perfectly acceptable for a closer to play some amount of “rope a dope”, surrendering baserunners as necessary to eat away outs. And doing so exponentially decreases the margin of error for the closer, making their subsequent performance even more critical. I do not argue the “8 batter” scenario, in fact I would agree that it would constitute a hack job, but I did not define what constitutes a “close”. This is what the game gives us. And why is it only “3 up, 3 down”? Why would 1-2-3 against the bottom of the Seattle order be the same as 1-2-3 through the heart of the Boston order? Why would there not be any forgiveness for allowing a baserunner against the likes of Boston?
Further, counting the number of outs in the save can defy the notion of counting baserunners surrendered. The closer could allow 3 baserunners in the 8th before registering the first out, then allow none in the 9th. That would be 3 baserunners allowed over 4 outs, and immediate Panther contender. But 1 baserunner allowed over 3 outs? Disqualified.
So closers must already operate at an unusually high level of execution, against an unusually high level of resistance, in an unusually leveraged situation. Success is far from assured. Attaining that success secures the good deeds of his fellow players earlier in the game. And for that we recognize his contributions incrementally. Failure redirects all blame from his teammates onto his shoulders, which we allocate immediately, and by the truck load.
It is our unit of measure that fails to honor the contributions of Frankie to the success of this team. It is not the contributions of Frankie that fail to honor our units of measure.
but i wouldn’t want to tangle with you in an elimination round of bulshitter’s billiards.
I will grant you, though, that Panther is an imprefect measurement of situational greatness, albeit ironic that the very random stat of the “Save” brings in the strategically best pitcher at times in a game that may not be the most “save-worthy” moments.
The flawed concept of what constitutes a “save” is what gives rise to much of the current debate.
And a closer gets no Panther credit for escaping a jam of his own creation.
To me, the idea is to give credit to a player who made either the most significant or timely contribution to the team’s win. The fact of the matter is that moment has usually already taken place by the time K-Rod enters the game (again, due to the definition of save, and the orthodoxy that one only uses the closer in save situations). The 7th/8th inning pitchers are simply much more likely to face pressure situations.
And as between a reliever who successfully negotiates the heart of the order once, and a starter who does it three times, well, I’ll go with the guy who pitched 7 innings.
im just saying that we should commend him for doing a great job. (anyway, since our expctations of him is that he will walk 4 batters and leave the tying or go ahead run on third before striking out the side means that a 1-2-3 inning would be way above and beyond our expectations. )but what i am saying is that if we have a game without a clear panther, and frankie gets a solid save, then he should get a panther. its not his fault that all the games are won or lost (well, almost all) before he takes the mound. thats like critizing the leadoff batter for not hitting a 2-run HR to lead off the inning
There is a game which meets your requirements you know.
Apr 25th vs Detroit:
Santana was okay but not great: 6.1 IP, 3 runs. Vlad and Kotch both had 2 hits and 2 RBI, the offensive contenders. 1 run game, K-Rod goes 1-2-3 with a K.
Panther went to Kotch. K-Rod was not initially listed by Rev as even being a contender.
Sorry to see Kotch lose the panther even though I voted for Ervin
But it brings to mind a lot of things I’ve been thinking about Kotch lately.
For example, with the bat it looks like Casey is turning to what we always hoped he would become … another Don Mattingly, ripping balls in the gaps, great situational hitting, hitting equally against lefties/righties. Similarly with the glove, Kotch is just the best at 1B … his agility range smarts and arm are above and beyond what anyone would expect for a 1B. Our infielders love him because they know he will pick any bad throw they make out of the dirt.
They love Kotch and so do I ….
However, someone posted earlier why doesn’t he bat No. 3? (Like Mattingly for instance?) The reason, I can only guess, is that the Angels staff have discovered the only flaw in Kotch’s game: He’s SLOW.
Poor Casey has absolutely no footspeed whatsoever and is a poor baserunner. Whilst the Angels coaches can help turn him into a smarter baserunner, they will never be able to get that grand piano off Casey’s back that he lugs with him every time he chugs along the base line.
I challenge anyone to name a slower (of foot) Angel in the last 10 years than Casey Kotchman. Both of our catchers, Mathis and Napoli would smoke poor Kotch in a footrace.
This is not a knock on Kotch, cuz I love the guy, but damn is he sloooooow. And that’s why maybe they don’t want him batting No. 3. In the heart of too many rallies, clogging up the basepaths, or in a potential situation where the rare Kotch bad swing leads to another rally-killing GIDP.
They can’t teach speed can they? Kotch is quick—with his reactions on defense, but he is so slow of foot that he might be a liability batting higher up in the order than No. 5 or 6 unless he starts whomping 40 HRs a year.
Not being critical of the guy, I love him … just sayin’ ...
because Kotch scored the two walk off runs against the jays….....and im just curious had those hits not been base hits would kotch have scored (i know JR’s was a one out hit, keeping the fly ball aspect in game and that Izzy’s was a two out hit….making the sac fly moot…....but had they both been 1 out and fly balls instead of base hits…..would he have scored…....and thats a “iffy” question…..you could ask 5 different people 2 times and one time the majority would say yes and the other they may say no….....so thats interesting i think…..
BTW side note: My love for Kotch should be of no questions lol…....the guy is by far my favorite angel since King Fish.
Q is the other 1B. If he is already used, or already penned in as 3B and there are no other 3B available, Kotch cannot be substituted. Our depth chart has no other 1B’s.
That is kinda where I was thinking this thread would go.
1B is not deep on the roster. Morales is down in AAA. Kotch is real slow. The Halos are playing games tight, with baserunning being at a premium late in games. Tath should make for interesting situational thinking.
Funny you mention that because I was watching the video of that walkoff the other day …
Casey scored the winning run when the Boy King drove in the game winner … by the time Izturis got to second base the ENTIRE TEAM had mobbed him around second base. And that included the relievers running in from the bullpen.
Poor Kotch crossed the plate and then joined the celebration really late … slow slow man.
Sorry, Kotch is hitting .325 with pop and RBI’s. Konerko would have been a waste of scratch.
Kotch is only scoring runs and playing unreal defense at 1B. Hitting with power and knocking runs in when he gets the chance. But, yeah – he’s friggin’ slow. Big F’n deal. He isn’t pain to run – he’s paid to hit and field. He isn’t a dumb baserunner, either. He is just slow. Anyway, I don’t see the big deal with his lack of speed – he should be hitting 3rd regardless of speed. He isn’t fast, but he isn’t Molina-esque either. He hobbles along just fine…
Kotchman is certainly not fast but his slowness isn’t in the range where it is a huge disadvantage. He can score from 2nd on a basehit, and he can score from 1B on a double. While he isn’t fast he doesn’t make stupid mistakes on the bases and he seems to get good jumps because as I mentioned I can’t off the top of my head recall a ton of times where Dino has had to stop him on a single.
I think his lack of speed is just magnified on a team that is built around it. It’s pretty easy to look slow when you have Figgy, Aybar, Willits, Torii, and even a damn fast catcher in Mathis.
Luis Sojo…. For a MI damn was he ever slow. I used to call him Luis SoSlow.
Remember that inside the park homerun he hit against Langston (I can only mention it because of 2002). I think he took a minute and a half to get home.
If you really want to go way back in Angels history, we could talk about guys like:
Jim Spencer Andy Etchebarren Ken McMullen Dave Chalk
All of whom were so SLOW they would not be able to play in today’s game. For that matter, Fregosi was not exactly fast, but he played such a smart SS and was such a hustler that it didn’t matter. I compare Jim Fregosi of the early 70s to Alan Trammell. Slow but really really good.
I used to work for the Angels during (ahem) unfortunately the Mo Vaughn years
Mo used to take a golf cart around the tunnels underneath the stadium to get from the clubhouse to the lifts behind home plate, etc. ... I shit you not.
But I still think Mo was faster than Casey “Wheels” Kotchman
Stepped up big time, as did Kotch and Robb Q, BTW, I never advocated signing Konerko. Our bully is doin a great job right now, Arrendondo is muy bueno, Arte re-sign K -rod, por favor !!!!
Just got home from the Cal State Fullerton, UCLA baseball game. What a game! Boy are the UCLA fans Rowdy. Fullerton won 5-4 and will now host Stanford.
Best part of my night was passing by the Big A and seeing the HALO Shining Bright.
we upped the pitching requirements for panther to complete games?
Los Angeles de Anaheim - June 2, 2008
No
But 2 runs surrendered to a AAA team versus 4 for 5 and being in the middle of the runs scoring in this drought of an offense has got to matter.
Rev Halofan - June 2, 2008
3 for 4.
Zu Long - June 2, 2008
I gotta at least give Mathis consideration for the dinger if we're looking at offense
Los Angeles de Anaheim - June 2, 2008
Yeah
I had Voodoo as Panther, with honorable mentions to Kotch and Mathis.
What is Mathis’ nickname here anyways?
red floyd - June 2, 2008
Napthis
Rev Halofan - June 2, 2008
Thought it was Matholi
n/t
red floyd - June 3, 2008
jeffery
UCIHalo - June 2, 2008
"Shotgun", for his strong throwing arm and quick pick-off throws.
44FAN - June 2, 2008
i thought this was how he drank his Coors lights...
Downing Rules - June 3, 2008
You are a veteran player that has found his stroke.
44FAN - June 3, 2008
Less than 2 runs maybe.
Zu Long - June 2, 2008
no love for ervin!
AHaloInSF - June 2, 2008
hahaha love the new win pic
but why the Kotch?
he was great, no doubt, but i’ve got to go with Ervin as well
howiestheman - June 2, 2008
It's the Angels Bandit!
And he got away with the heist.
44FAN - June 2, 2008
that's a very arresting pic though
AHaloInSF - June 2, 2008
so, do we get to see the new lineup all the time now?
because it’s apparently working for hits.
maybe move Kotch up in the order… like to 3rd??
howiestheman - June 2, 2008
man, i love beating seattle.
especially when they suck.
that pic is awesome.
retrohalo - June 2, 2008
I'm with the Rev. Kotch deserves this one.
TheOptimist - June 2, 2008
Hilariously,
Rev no longer agrees.
Zu Long - June 2, 2008
im okay with it
if not ervin its got to be kotchaman. when everyone else on the team struggles he has stayed consistent
UCIHalo - June 2, 2008
Glad Ervin is Panther...
but if we’re going on offense, Mathis’ 2-run dinger was more important to our win percentage (fangraphs)
Los Angeles de Anaheim - June 2, 2008
(more important than Kotch)
Los Angeles de Anaheim - June 2, 2008
I can ususally judge FG pretty good
but I was WAY off on this one…
Rev Halofan - June 2, 2008
Imma throw a shout out for Q......i know panther is decided already but
Hes 5-7 his last two games…......and pretty soild with his glove….
norcaliangelsfan - June 2, 2008
Yeah
He’s no GGer, but he’s been okay over there. But his bat especially is starting to pick up.
Zu Long - June 2, 2008
well he doesnt have to make the spectacular....just the routine..im fine with that
and the team needs better O more than better D right now
norcaliangelsfan - June 2, 2008
Better D might be the reason our pitching has been so good though.
If you buy that Wood gets Lopez’ hit, that one less run for them. But I understand what you mean. Q has been exactly what we needed him to be (a good backup player) which is more than most of our players can say.
Zu Long - June 2, 2008
Holy crap!
A thread on Q that isn’t “Get rid of him”!!!!
red floyd - June 2, 2008
There is still a small band of holdouts who maintain that he is not the anti-christ.
We have not all fallen yet.
Zu Long - June 2, 2008
you'll all fall with time....
okay, im kidding.
as much as i hate to admit it (as Q is the anti-christ, I tell you!!!), he has shown up the last few games.
his D still looks like crap, and that flop has got to go, but he’s had a few good hits recently.
howiestheman - June 2, 2008
Seriously, I don't mind Q
He is what he is. He’s a solid dependable backup. I just don’t like to see him starting…
(cough HOME OPENER???? cough)
red floyd - June 3, 2008
i was there
and effing pissed
howiestheman - June 3, 2008
So was I
and that’s what I meant.
I don’t care that a lefty was pitching… It’s the HOME OPENER for chrissake! Start Kotch!!!
red floyd - June 3, 2008
ive always defended Q......if i was a GM he would be on my team...i love the guy.
he just shows up to work and does the best he can…....and thats i can ask for
norcaliangelsfan - June 2, 2008
i would ask for a decent batting average and solid defense
but seriously i like Q has a person, he seems like a gritty guy but sometimes he is difficult to watch
UCIHalo - June 2, 2008
He has had "solid" defense, at least this year.
Wood has “really freakin’ good” defense, and Q looks bad by comparison.
Zu Long - June 2, 2008
woah, wheres the love for frankie!
league leading 22nd save in a perfect 1-2-3 outing. he is 22-23 in save chances. this dude not only deserves a panther, but it is a crime that he hasnt gotten one yet. we are 25-26 in games this dude has pitched in. in 24 innings he hasnt even given up a HR yet! although ervin definitely derserves props, a panther HAS to be in line for frankie
anaheim angels - June 2, 2008
its simple really......
Hes playing for his next contract…....
norcaliangelsfan - June 2, 2008
OR he's just now coming into his prime years.
You know, with him being only 26 and all.
Zu Long - June 2, 2008
Hopefully he'll get one the day he breaks the save record.
Till then, I’m not optimistic.
Zu Long - June 2, 2008
so what if he is playing for a contract. he is still putting up monster numbers
the truth is, 99% of all major leaguers (check that, all athletes) play for a contract. that is why there is free agency and stuff. also, juan had 1 AB and is considered a panther, vlad has faced 88 batters, and only 12! have gotten hits. dont blame him for only coming in after a game is won. he is pitching exceptionally, and he deserves at the very least to be considered for a panther
anaheim angels - June 2, 2008
That was pretty confused
especially the part about how many batters Vlad has faced. Take a breath, and try again.
Zu Long - June 2, 2008
sorry, im really out if it today.
crazy headache, took like 4 advil and 2 aleve plus icing my forhead to be able to watch the game. anyway, vlad is supposed to be frankie. frankie has faced 88 batters. actually 91 now including tonight
anaheim angels - June 2, 2008
Technically that would be 16 who have hits then.
Zu Long - June 2, 2008
wow
i have no idea why i typed 12. i had just looked the stat up too. i must have really been out of it last night
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
If Frankie gets a 4-Out save
That is above and beyond … one example. Panther is above and beyond.
Rev Halofan - June 2, 2008
Still think it's unfair that "expected"
amounts to being perfect at his case, with above and beyond being purely up to chance whether he ever gets a shot at it.
Zu Long - June 2, 2008
*at his [job]
Zu Long - June 2, 2008
"Expected" for batters is 3 out of 10.
So every batter who gets 2 hits in a game beats “expected” and has gone above and beyond, meeting the first criteria for POTG.
Stirrups - June 2, 2008
i would say right now
that Q has done better than expected…....since he isnt an everday guy…he went 3/4 and 2/3 the last two starts…. with a RBI tonight…....but he has had no mention of POTG
norcaliangelsfan - June 2, 2008
Explain how that mitigates the unfairness of "expected" being a 100% save rate.
Zu Long - June 2, 2008
im not saying that at all.......
i was just throwing that out there…......i personally think that Frankie is way more important than Q only for the fact that once Figgy gets healthy…...Q will be on the pine again…..Frankie will still be utilized way more than Q….....but since Q is making his impact when no one expects it…..its a little more larger “right now” but in no way am i mitigating what Frankie’s role on this ball club is…....Q might be responsible for a few wins here and there…..but Frankie will be more responsible for this team winning a pennant and championship.
norcaliangelsfan - June 2, 2008
Once again, you expect me to make sense today. Wait until tomorrow.
I was pointing out that the bar is very low for hitters. You had already pointed out that the bar was way too high for relievers.
My theory, overall, is that fans believe that the closer means that the game should be over, so they start taking their cues from earlier events in the game and begging the closer to merely put the seal on their existing opinion of the game story.
The only way Frankie gets a save is if he comes in during the 7th game of the WS, up 1-0, bases loaded and nobody out, and strikes out the side on something less than 9 pitches.
Stirrups - June 2, 2008
i think you meant....panther
but you said save instead at the end there
norcaliangelsfan - June 2, 2008
slighgt exaggeration
My personal take on a Frankie Panther is that he has to do something exceptional. It doesn’t take much to save a game coming in to start the inning, with a 3-run lead. He could face as many as eight batters and still do the job. Just about every pitcher in the major leagues can accomplish that. So, no Panther unless it’s a 1-run game to start the ninth.
Any 4+ out save is an immediate Panther contender.
To qualify, a 3-out save must result in nobody reaching base safely – 3 up, 3 down.
Panther for a save lasting less than 3 outs when entering into a highly leveraged situation – at least one runner on base. The more runners on, the better the chance of a panther. The closer the runner is to scoring when Frankie enters, the better the chance of getting a panther if the runner doesn’t score.
Those are a few parameters that guide my voting, anyway.
jjackflash - June 2, 2008
We are of the same mind
and but for one superfluous T, the same name…
Rev Halofan - June 2, 2008
Exaggeration, of course. Hence the 3K's using less than 9 pitches.
But the principal remains.
I do not believe that the team on offense, behind but close and in their final at-bat, approaches that chance with anything near how they approach other innings and other situations. In the case of the final at-bat there is nothing to lose, so everything and the kitchen sink are possibly tossed at the pitcher. This is not the environment in which every pitcher in the major leagues is asked to contend, much less thrive.
In fact, when a team goes down in the 9th 1-2-3, the common description for that effort is “weak”, as in “they went down weakly”. So your requirement might actually presume that the offense (manager included, based on his substitution choices or non-choices) surrenders. Not saying that this is the case, just pointing out the opposing consideration.
Increasing the difficulty is the fact that the closer has almost no tolerance for finding the ump’s strike zone for that particular game. This means that the closer is required to be near perfect from the very first pitch, while pitching blind (metaphorically). All pitchers face this problem, but only closers have zero margin for error. Starters can yield a couple of runs and take a few innings to figure it out, and they can still qualify for a Quality Start. BY your measures, the close has blown POTG.
It is perfectly acceptable for a closer to play some amount of “rope a dope”, surrendering baserunners as necessary to eat away outs. And doing so exponentially decreases the margin of error for the closer, making their subsequent performance even more critical. I do not argue the “8 batter” scenario, in fact I would agree that it would constitute a hack job, but I did not define what constitutes a “close”. This is what the game gives us. And why is it only “3 up, 3 down”? Why would 1-2-3 against the bottom of the Seattle order be the same as 1-2-3 through the heart of the Boston order? Why would there not be any forgiveness for allowing a baserunner against the likes of Boston?
Further, counting the number of outs in the save can defy the notion of counting baserunners surrendered. The closer could allow 3 baserunners in the 8th before registering the first out, then allow none in the 9th. That would be 3 baserunners allowed over 4 outs, and immediate Panther contender. But 1 baserunner allowed over 3 outs? Disqualified.
So closers must already operate at an unusually high level of execution, against an unusually high level of resistance, in an unusually leveraged situation. Success is far from assured. Attaining that success secures the good deeds of his fellow players earlier in the game. And for that we recognize his contributions incrementally. Failure redirects all blame from his teammates onto his shoulders, which we allocate immediately, and by the truck load.
It is our unit of measure that fails to honor the contributions of Frankie to the success of this team. It is not the contributions of Frankie that fail to honor our units of measure.
Stirrups - June 2, 2008
your argument is predicatd on flimsy suppositions
but i wouldn’t want to tangle with you in an elimination round of bulshitter’s billiards.
I will grant you, though, that Panther is an imprefect measurement of situational greatness, albeit ironic that the very random stat of the “Save” brings in the strategically best pitcher at times in a game that may not be the most “save-worthy” moments.
Rev Halofan - June 3, 2008
as the Rev indicates
The flawed concept of what constitutes a “save” is what gives rise to much of the current debate.
And a closer gets no Panther credit for escaping a jam of his own creation.
To me, the idea is to give credit to a player who made either the most significant or timely contribution to the team’s win. The fact of the matter is that moment has usually already taken place by the time K-Rod enters the game (again, due to the definition of save, and the orthodoxy that one only uses the closer in save situations). The 7th/8th inning pitchers are simply much more likely to face pressure situations.
And as between a reliever who successfully negotiates the heart of the order once, and a starter who does it three times, well, I’ll go with the guy who pitched 7 innings.
jjackflash - June 3, 2008
For the record, I was advocating in general,
not pluggin Frankie for this game.
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
im not saying frankie should be panther THIS game
im just saying that we should commend him for doing a great job. (anyway, since our expctations of him is that he will walk 4 batters and leave the tying or go ahead run on third before striking out the side means that a 1-2-3 inning would be way above and beyond our expectations. )but what i am saying is that if we have a game without a clear panther, and frankie gets a solid save, then he should get a panther. its not his fault that all the games are won or lost (well, almost all) before he takes the mound. thats like critizing the leadoff batter for not hitting a 2-run HR to lead off the inning
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
There is a game which meets your requirements you know.
Apr 25th vs Detroit:
Santana was okay but not great: 6.1 IP, 3 runs. Vlad and Kotch both had 2 hits and 2 RBI, the offensive contenders. 1 run game, K-Rod goes 1-2-3 with a K.
Panther went to Kotch. K-Rod was not initially listed by Rev as even being a contender.
Zu Long - June 3, 2008
kind of like...
when shields comes in with guys in scoring position and gets us out of a jam.
NoDakHalo - June 3, 2008
Melvin......
nailed the pregame pics…..right on!
norcaliangelsfan - June 2, 2008
Panther!
melvintoast - June 3, 2008
Sorry to see Kotch lose the panther even though I voted for Ervin
But it brings to mind a lot of things I’ve been thinking about Kotch lately.
For example, with the bat it looks like Casey is turning to what we always hoped he would become … another Don Mattingly, ripping balls in the gaps, great situational hitting, hitting equally against lefties/righties. Similarly with the glove, Kotch is just the best at 1B … his agility range smarts and arm are above and beyond what anyone would expect for a 1B. Our infielders love him because they know he will pick any bad throw they make out of the dirt.
They love Kotch and so do I ….
However, someone posted earlier why doesn’t he bat No. 3? (Like Mattingly for instance?) The reason, I can only guess, is that the Angels staff have discovered the only flaw in Kotch’s game: He’s SLOW.
Poor Casey has absolutely no footspeed whatsoever and is a poor baserunner. Whilst the Angels coaches can help turn him into a smarter baserunner, they will never be able to get that grand piano off Casey’s back that he lugs with him every time he chugs along the base line.
I challenge anyone to name a slower (of foot) Angel in the last 10 years than Casey Kotchman. Both of our catchers, Mathis and Napoli would smoke poor Kotch in a footrace.
This is not a knock on Kotch, cuz I love the guy, but damn is he sloooooow. And that’s why maybe they don’t want him batting No. 3. In the heart of too many rallies, clogging up the basepaths, or in a potential situation where the rare Kotch bad swing leads to another rally-killing GIDP.
They can’t teach speed can they? Kotch is quick—with his reactions on defense, but he is so slow of foot that he might be a liability batting higher up in the order than No. 5 or 6 unless he starts whomping 40 HRs a year.
Not being critical of the guy, I love him … just sayin’ ...
highlandhalo - June 2, 2008
its funny you mention that.......
because Kotch scored the two walk off runs against the jays….....and im just curious had those hits not been base hits would kotch have scored (i know JR’s was a one out hit, keeping the fly ball aspect in game and that Izzy’s was a two out hit….making the sac fly moot…....but had they both been 1 out and fly balls instead of base hits…..would he have scored…....and thats a “iffy” question…..you could ask 5 different people 2 times and one time the majority would say yes and the other they may say no….....so thats interesting i think…..
BTW side note: My love for Kotch should be of no questions lol…....the guy is by far my favorite angel since King Fish.
norcaliangelsfan - June 2, 2008
More than speed and situations at question
depth of the ball hit, known quality of the fielding player’s arm, et cetera…
Rev Halofan - June 2, 2008
You raise an interesting consideration.
At what point in a game must Sosh consider subbing a pinch runner for Kotch?
Stirrups - June 2, 2008
well those two games that the halos won as walk offs
would have been as good as time as any…......the speed thing doesnt bother Soth so much i guess.
norcaliangelsfan - June 2, 2008
Not necessarily.
Q is the other 1B. If he is already used, or already penned in as 3B and there are no other 3B available, Kotch cannot be substituted. Our depth chart has no other 1B’s.
Stirrups - June 2, 2008
You forgot
Johnny Rivers.
red floyd - June 3, 2008
Not on their published depth chart.
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
it depends. who do we have on the bench that can man 1st
i dont think he can sub out krotch unless we have kendry in the bigs
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
That is kinda where I was thinking this thread would go.
1B is not deep on the roster. Morales is down in AAA. Kotch is real slow. The Halos are playing games tight, with baserunning being at a premium late in games. Tath should make for interesting situational thinking.
Stirrups - June 3, 2008
I love Kotch too
Funny you mention that because I was watching the video of that walkoff the other day …
Casey scored the winning run when the Boy King drove in the game winner … by the time Izturis got to second base the ENTIRE TEAM had mobbed him around second base. And that included the relievers running in from the bullpen.
Poor Kotch crossed the plate and then joined the celebration really late … slow slow man.
Love him though.
highlandhalo - June 4, 2008
Benjie Molina.
Stirrups - June 2, 2008
100% on
Other than Bengie Molina, there has been no slower Angel than Casey Kotchman in as long as I can recall. His optimum position in the lineup is 5th.
Rev Halofan - June 2, 2008
i kinda like the fact that CK is hitting near the bottom
gives the line a little more “balance” atleast helps bridge the gap some
norcaliangelsfan - June 2, 2008
You all forget about the awesome duo of Tim Salmon and Cecil Fielder...
and this was Tim was playing with that wacky foot injury for the whole year.
cupie - June 2, 2008
lol.......tim had a 9 SB season in 97.......i doubt CK will ever have that many
he had 3 in 04….lol
norcaliangelsfan - June 2, 2008
So are you saying Casey don't run fast?
The way he winces all the time when he is batting always looks like he is trying to fight off a good hard sneeze or something.
44FAN - June 2, 2008
ONE DAY I WILL LOOK UP ALL THE POSTS IN 2005/06 OFFSEASON
of who wanted to sign Paul Konerko. I called you all idiots then and I call you all idiots now … and the chorus will only grow louder.
Rev Halofan - June 2, 2008
i know it wasnt me....lol
ive only been on this site for a week…..haha
norcaliangelsfan - June 2, 2008
Me neither, so I am safe.
44FAN - June 2, 2008
Exactly, Rev.
Sorry, Kotch is hitting .325 with pop and RBI’s. Konerko would have been a waste of scratch.
Kotch is only scoring runs and playing unreal defense at 1B. Hitting with power and knocking runs in when he gets the chance. But, yeah – he’s friggin’ slow. Big F’n deal. He isn’t pain to run – he’s paid to hit and field. He isn’t a dumb baserunner, either. He is just slow. Anyway, I don’t see the big deal with his lack of speed – he should be hitting 3rd regardless of speed. He isn’t fast, but he isn’t Molina-esque either. He hobbles along just fine…
jimmuscomp - June 2, 2008
I agree
Kotchman is certainly not fast but his slowness isn’t in the range where it is a huge disadvantage. He can score from 2nd on a basehit, and he can score from 1B on a double. While he isn’t fast he doesn’t make stupid mistakes on the bases and he seems to get good jumps because as I mentioned I can’t off the top of my head recall a ton of times where Dino has had to stop him on a single.
I think his lack of speed is just magnified on a team that is built around it. It’s pretty easy to look slow when you have Figgy, Aybar, Willits, Torii, and even a damn fast catcher in Mathis.
MH252525 - June 3, 2008
I would have to put Kotch in the top 5 for sure. But not #1.
Slowest Baserunners in Angel History
1. Cecil Fielder
2. Mo Vaughn
3. Bengie Molina
4. Casey Kotchman
5. Tim Salmon
angels4adam - June 3, 2008
For MI though I would like to nominate....
Luis Sojo…. For a MI damn was he ever slow. I used to call him Luis SoSlow.
Remember that inside the park homerun he hit against Langston (I can only mention it because of 2002). I think he took a minute and a half to get home.
MH252525 - June 3, 2008
Sojo was SLOW
If you really want to go way back in Angels history, we could talk about guys like:
Jim Spencer
Andy Etchebarren
Ken McMullen
Dave Chalk
All of whom were so SLOW they would not be able to play in today’s game. For that matter, Fregosi was not exactly fast, but he played such a smart SS and was such a hustler that it didn’t matter. I compare Jim Fregosi of the early 70s to Alan Trammell. Slow but really really good.
highlandhalo - June 4, 2008
David Ortiz bats third
Carl Johnson - June 3, 2008
i got one slower than bengie molina. i got one slower than any other angel in history
mo vaughn. goddamn was he slow. he couldnt walk to first without talking a breather
anaheim angels - June 3, 2008
I used to work for the Angels during (ahem) unfortunately the Mo Vaughn years
Mo used to take a golf cart around the tunnels underneath the stadium to get from the clubhouse to the lifts behind home plate, etc. ... I shit you not.
But I still think Mo was faster than Casey “Wheels” Kotchman
highlandhalo - June 4, 2008
scottnak - June 2, 2008
Holy cow!!!!
My first top score (modulo the “everyone wins/loses” scenario)!
red floyd - June 3, 2008
also my first time to score 3
mjhsieh - June 3, 2008
and he gloats about it.
:P
Downing Rules - June 4, 2008
Santana
Stepped up big time, as did Kotch and Robb Q, BTW, I never advocated signing Konerko. Our bully is doin a great job right now, Arrendondo is muy bueno, Arte re-sign K -rod, por favor !!!!
halofolife - June 2, 2008
Sounds Like i missed a good game
Just got home from the Cal State Fullerton, UCLA baseball game.
What a game! Boy are the UCLA fans Rowdy.
Fullerton won 5-4 and will now host Stanford.
Best part of my night was passing by the Big A and seeing the HALO
Shining Bright.
Funke5ive - June 3, 2008
The WIN picture
Priceless.
mjhsieh - June 3, 2008
Lots of words in this thread...
ERVIN SANTANA…’nuff said.
Downing Rules - June 3, 2008
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