MONEY ARGUMENT: We could invest the money in a few players over time and get better results. That is... IF we invest the money in the right players.
CONTRACT LENGTH ARGUMENT: Penciling anyone in for opening day 2016 is an out-of-the-mind proposition.
HARDCORE STAT-HEAD ARGUMENT: He will be 29 around opening day. Players historically peak at age 27-28. We might get one 150 OPS+ season out of him, and we will surely get a few great seasons out of him, but seasons 6, 7 and 8 will be Gary Matthewsesque and cost twice the dough.
CHEMISTRY ARGUMENT: His departure from the Rangers was not met with any teammates crying.
A-ROD ARGUMENT: He is not as good as A-Rod, he never will be and he should not be getting paid anywhere near what A-Rod makes nor have close to as many guaranteed years on his contract as A-Rod.
RINGS ARGUMENT: I don't see any.
POSITIONAL FETISH ARGUMENT: It is easier to get high production from a First-Baseman because of the defensive ease relative to the difficulty of playing most any other position. So we are overpaying for a position that is easier to replace production at than any other on the diamond.
SINGLES ARGUMENT: That was all he hit in the playoffs.
WORLD ECONOMIST ARGUMENT: When deflation hits next year, $20 Million 2008 dollars are going to cost Arte $30 MIllion 2009 dollars.
ALREADY STACKED ARGUMENT: Brandon Wood (3b) + Kendry Morales (1B) = greater offensive and defensive contributions than Chone Figgins and Teixeira - and at a cost of only $1 MIllion in 2009.
0 recs | 59 comments
1& 2
If it is over, hmmmm, 190/9 (I keep going a little higher on my limit). That is still too much but I wouldn’t cry over it too much to get Tex. These type of players don’t show up every day. If he got it my response would be:
Ok boy, now get to work. Let’s see you prove you’re worth it.
vladtheimpaler - December 19, 2008
MONEY ARGUMENT – Tex isn’t worth it but Angels’ fans have irrationally clinged to him. Tex will be another investment Arte makes to bring the fans back. A lot of fans maybe wondering where the team is going if Tex signs with another team. If he is resigned Tex becomes the FACE of the organization to many Angels’ fans eyes.
CONTRACT LENGTH ARGUMENT – he isn’t worth the length but you have to roll the dice. I think he’d be like a Todd Helton albatross, but I wouldn’t be surprised if stays productive like Manny did for much of his time in Boston [without the baggage]. I don’t see Tex falling off considerably.
HARDCORE STAT-HEAD ARGUMENT – he a switch hitter with power and patience at the plate.
CHEMISTRY ARGUMENT – Tex is as professional as they come along. I don’t think he soils your team’s chemistry except he is maybe too much of a pro.
A-ROD ARGUMENT – he’s not as good as A-Rod.
RINGS ARGUMENT – he may win a championship in Boston or New York and I’d rather see him win at least one ring with the Angels.
POSITIONAL FETISH ARGUMENT – we do have Kendry Morales and Mark Trumbo waiting in the wings, but the fanbase will not be sated unless big Tex is the Angels’ opening day first baseman.
SINGLES ARGUMENT – the playoffs are fluky and I’ll bet on Teixeira to produce most of the time he’ll get a team into the postseason.
WORLD ECONOMIST ARGUMENT – who cares, Tex is who the fans want. So be it when we have to pay so much more because Arte can use signing Tex as an excuse to raise ticket prices.
ALREADY STACKED ARGUMENT – fan sentiment seems to be ‘Tex or nothing’ and losing K-Rod is one thing, but not being able to resign Tex will break people’s hearts.
BBFan1 - December 19, 2008
Agree with most of what you said
Re’vs tryign to stoke the fire. I don’t think a single one of his arguments are valid.
rjcicc - December 19, 2008
TEIX PREFERS TO PLAY FOR EAST COAST TEAM BECAUSE THAT IS HIS HOME ARGUMENT-
If this is true, as many journalist have reported and folks like ArkAngel have professed here at HH, then why is is reported by Mike DiGiovanna in his LAT article that Teix’s home is actually in the Dallas area of Texas?
It seems like a player in the middle of the off-season, and less than a week before Christmas, would be at his home with his family preparing for the holidays. According to this article, Maryland does not seem to be Teixeira’s home at the moment unless he is waiting for an offer from the Astros or the Rangers. It has been reported that Torii Hunter also maintains a home in Texas in the Arlington area as well as Newport Beach California near where he currently plays for the Angels. I think this whole, "he wants to play on the east coast because that’s where he’s from and it is his home is bologna.
44FAN - December 19, 2008
His wife is from the east coast. He is originally from Maryland
Perhaps he bought a house in Texas when he was a member of the Rangers?
hauldog - December 19, 2008
Argument 1,2,& 3
If getting Tex though doesn’t hurt us in acquiring free agent talent in the future or holding on to our own, then I don’t care since it’s Arte’s money and not mine. If it prevents us from signing a long term deal to Lackey, prevents us from resigning Vladdy if he’s productive, or makes us trade away salary in the future to compensate for the salaries of Hunter or Tex then I am against the move.
stolenbases - December 19, 2008
Aint no rings on Torri’s fingers either. But I think we’ll keep him.
HaloDutch - December 19, 2008
Rings Argument – Should not apply to any player because any baseball fans know that the post-season is a crapshoot.
Personal Fetish Argument – Maybe it is easier to replace Tex’s production at 1B than at any other position but let’s face it, Tex will by far be our most productive hitter for at least the next 5 years or so unless Brandon Wood turns out to be the next coming of A-Rod or even Evan Longoria. When is the last time we had a legitimate power hitting 1st baseman anyways?
Already Stacked Argument – Brandon Wood and Kendry Morales are not “sure things”. They haven’t had a full year to prove themselves and even though they may blossom into superstars, they could just as easily turn into mega-busts.
Singles Argument – As somebody else mentioned in a fanpost, nobody except the 3-4-5 hitters got on base so when Tex was batting, nobody was ever on for him and so he never got anything good to hit. The fact that he was able to hit and get on base at a high clip shows just how good he is.
Chzburger Jones - December 19, 2008
It's time to fold
Even though he was like the rug in Jeff Lebowski’s front room to the 2008 Angels, that’s no reason to go nuts and offer an 8-year contract. That has ‘regret’ written all over it, especially considering it (along with the signing of Rivera) effectively displaces Brandon Wood.
Unless Ninja has something up his sleeve trade-wise regarding Wood or Chone, I think signing Tex at this point creates some problems even in the short term, but especially in the long term.
Without Tex, the Angels are still the odds-on favorites in the West, and the playoffs are still a crapshoot. Let’s put Morales at first, Wood at short, sign Manny (keep him out of LF as much as possible), and trade Aybar. If the right deal comes along, trade Wood or Chone.
squarefootnatlpark - December 19, 2008
I agree with this....
This is getting stupid talking about “lets up the offer”. Bottom line: we win our division and the playoffs are still a crapshoot. If I remember correctly, we didnt have a vlad and a tex and a super stud pitching staff in 02’. Role players, team chemistry, and clutch performances win in the playoffs. I really dont mind the idea of signing manny for 3 years+club option 4th.
AlohaHalofan - December 19, 2008
Of course I'd have reservations about any contract of 8-10 years...
but I think the Angels need to sign Tex and badly. Tex knows the strikezone and so I think saying his numbers will come close to GMJ towards the end of the contract is absurd.
I don’t put much weight into the Texas Rangers didn’t miss him in the clubhouse argument. He seemed like a great teammate during his time here, and I could see how playing for the Rangers would have been as frustrating as anything what with their lousy excuse of a pitching staff. Torii Hunter the ultimate teammate obviously wants him back, and if he’s good enough for Torii then he’s good enough for me.
MH252525 - December 19, 2008
A superstar like Tex
is exactly what you want to spend on. Four $5 million players do not equal a superstar $20 million player.
Imagine if we had coughed up $120 for Carlos Beltran way back when (not that I am unhappy with Torii – I love him). So many people made these same arguments back then, but they were wrong.
halofan91 - December 19, 2008
That contract seemed so enormous back then
My my, how things have changed
PhiSlamma - December 19, 2008
does it matter? all the reports today have the sox still interested
and that their bid is still higher than ours. Theyre just calling Boras’ bluff that another team has bid more than them that he’s willing to go to. Unless we pony up more money its not happening…and i cant see that happening
ihearhowie2.0 - December 19, 2008
Exactly...
their bid is still higher than the angels was by more than 10 million. Honestly I seee him going to either tthe Sux or the Nats. IT is sad to say, but its is most likely true. The Angels wont up there offer and the Red Sux were higher and they got out bid. All signs say that Tex wants the money. He can have the money and lose for 8 years congrats and good ridddance.
angelskid2210 - December 19, 2008
Lets be honest...
we have no idea what either of the offers were. I read that the sux had offered 184/8, but then I read a sux official said that was false. So who knows? The only thing we really know is that the Angels offered an 8 year deal in Vegas. Beyond that, we don’t know.
Angel Hawker - December 19, 2008
I don't believe Boston ownership for a second....
This is all posturing by the Sox and Boras, I just don’t believe Boston ownership or their GM (Epstein) would close the door on Tex. I suspect Tex has made up his mind a long time ago, Boras is trying to squeeze a few more dollars into his pocket by playing all sides against each other. I also would not be surprised if this misdirection is more about where Manny ends up and how much Varitek gets……
Don’t be surprised if there a few more twists and turns in this plot before Tex puts ink on paper. It’s all about greed now…
As for the perspective that we’re “stacked” with Kendry and Wood, I think not. Neither has produced at the ML level, and frankly neither are considered the Angels’ top prospects today. I think the upside comparison for Wood is Rob Deer; for Kendry it’s Wally Joyner. I really, really hope I’m wrong.
mustard_man - December 19, 2008
Wood
If Rob Deer could have played a quality SS I think he would have been a great player. A lifetime OPS + of 109. A better than average hitting SS, count me in.
MH252525 - December 19, 2008
I agree....kinda
You might be right about Boston. I posted the same sentiments a few threads ago. However, I would be cautious to write off Morales and Wood. Who rocketed a double off the big green monster in Game Five? Morales out of all people. That should of been the go ahead run. You got to have some poise and some serious confidence to role into Fenway, as a rookie, in a PLAYOFF game and bust one off the fence. That was impressive to me.
I know they havent had the chance to perform over the course of a full season but I think these kids are going to be around for awhile whether its with a halos cap on or not.
BryanHarvey'sMoustache - December 19, 2008
More arguments
He looks stupid while batting:
That is usually the face he is sporting nearly at all times.
He runs the bases holding his gloves. Infuriating.
Who does that? Honestly?
To get Tex we had to get rid of this guy
Oh Kotch, My manlove still persists….
PhiSlamma - December 19, 2008
haha all strong points
ihearhowie2.0 - December 19, 2008
But are his mannerisms more infuriating than GMJ's jogging back to the dugout style
after his frequent groundouts to 2B — fey-ly swinging his arms like a 5 year old little leaguer? I feel like doing the expression on the face of David Koechner’s character in Talledega Nights when Jean Girard puts on the jazz music in the bar.
PieceOfAase - December 19, 2008
mike napoli runs with gloves in hand
yeswecan - December 19, 2008
I have heard many times that running with the gloves keep the players' fingers tight fisted
and protects them from being stepped on, or other accidental injuries happening while sliding in to a base particularly when stealing. I don’t see how anybody could be infuriated about preventing finger injuries to valuable players like Teix or Napoli.
44FAN - December 19, 2008
If only DiSar had employed this method...
Downing Rules - December 19, 2008
Exactly
Why they hold gloves. Well stated.
TheAntiSox - January 15, 2009
lol
stolenbases - December 19, 2008
Kotch was another Joyner
good but not really good enough.
BryanHarvey'sMoustache - December 19, 2008
I always thought of him...
at another JT Snow
Angel Hawker - December 19, 2008
Joyner is plenty "good enough" for a winning baseball club
He was a great Angel, and certainly didn’t pull us down in ’86.
mattwelch - December 19, 2008
Good points. but...
here’s my counterpoint:
You didn’t mention the “Wow-Factor”. Never underestimate the “Wow-Factor” It drives seemingly logical people to do silly things like spend $20K more for a Cadillac Escalade when all it is a Chevy Suburban with leather seats.
People always want other people to see them as “Playas”
It’s why people buy Rolexs or use valet parking. Anaheim has always taken a back seat to Los Angeles. Having an overpriced guy like Teix in the lineup, may seem illogical dollar-wise, but it may have tremendous value brand and statement-wise.
After all, you’re talking about getting a World Series championship away from deep- pocket teams like New York and Bahstin
3rd Echelon - December 19, 2008
Most likely he'll sign with Red Sox
Why would he give up all that merchandising? What kind of merchandising would he get here vs. Boston? Not much. So the salary is one thing, but the bottom line is the total package, which no team can match.
So if the two sides (Boston and Tex) can agree on a final salary, then it’s really a no brainer, assuming Tex wants to raise his kids in that cesspool of Godlessness and impropriety. On the other hand, it would seem to be more suited to Annapolis and its confines, meaning the O’s or the Nats, and accept the loss for the good of the family.
As to the Angels, I would rank them as slim to none, in chance of getting Tex. This place is known for neighbor not knowing or caring for neighbor, extremely low morals, extreme greed, except if you belong to Reverend Rick Warren’s church, or another evangelical Gay basher Church, etc., something that is so far removed from Tex’s way of life and the life that he wants for his family.
Kristy_Joe - December 19, 2008
-"in that cesspool of Godlessness and impropriety"
you forgot “intolerance.”
MidwayCityLivestock - December 19, 2008
"you forgot 'intolerance.'"
Not a very tolerant comment.
cj1646 - December 20, 2008
Wow...
you totally pegged all of us in SoCal. Thanks!
Angel Hawker - December 19, 2008
Very weak
Not even worth my time to go into discourse on your simplistic, ad hominem argument.
stolenbases - December 19, 2008
Umm It's $23mil Plus/per year...
-For a lifetime .290 Switch hitting 1st baseman who’s only season with more than 40 HR’s took place 4 seasons ago in Texas.
-He has 2 gold gloves, and plays the position well enough to assume there are a good couple more GG’s to come. As previously argued however, it is still just 1st base (although with Aybar’s throws…)
-He has a great eye, good feel for the plate, high OBP and SLG, and if inserted into the right lineup, could be capable of great things.
-He is an exciting player to watch, but HE’S NOT ALBERT PUJOLS.
This player described above is 6y/$100-120m player TOPS.
I love the guy, he’s great. And I’d like to think Kotch wasn’t in Vain. But I already think our first offer of 8/$160 was far too much. And people that throw out crazy 8/180-200 numbers and justify them are scairy.
MidwayCityLivestock - December 19, 2008
Pujols = Antiquated contract that was not signed on the open market
Evaluating Tex using his batting average is lazy at best.
hauldog - December 19, 2008
BA=lazy is correct
I’m on the road on the iPhone so resources are limited. His #‘s have been cited all over the place, and my point remains: he’s a good player, capable of great in stretches, but he is never going to be Pujols, and I dare anyone to say that pujols could fetch Comparatively more in this or any market.
MidwayCityLivestock - December 19, 2008
It's hard to hit a ton of homeruns when he's always getting those pesky walks....
MH252525 - December 19, 2008
NOT already stacked
There’s no way Brandon Wood and Kendry Morales produce the same as Mark Teixiera. And neither of them put fear into any pitcher’s head, which Teix does, as we saw in the last half of last year. And he’s a “franchise” player to build around, now that Vlad is slowing down.
yeswecan - December 19, 2008
Backatcha
MONEY ARGUMENT: Spending premium money on a premium player is one of the best uses of money in baseball (see Guerrero, Vlad). It is a much more dependable bet than “if we invest the money in the right players. We paid GMJ and Jon Garland $21.4 million last year. Year before that we paid $22.4 mil on GMJ & Bartolo "6.34 ERA” Colon. In 2006 we paid $25 mil+ for Jeff Weaver, Edgardo Alfonzo, and Darin “95 ABs” Erstad. Year before that it was $20.2 mil on Erstad, Steve fucking Finley, and 60 innings of Kelvim Escobar.
CONTRACT LENGTH ARGUMENT: Should we be paying anyone for their age-36 seasons? Ask Gary Matthews (36 in 2011), Torii Hunter (2012), or Darren Oliver, who turned 36 in 2007. Then compare the most comparable players to those guys, versus the most comparable players to Mark Teixeira. Teix is most comparable to Carlos Delgado, who (lucky for us), just completed his age-36 year. How did Delgado do from 29-36? In 8 seasons he averaged 35 homers, 111 RBIs, 83 walks, and an OPS+ of 138. In his age-36 season, in fact, he finished 9th in the MVP voting.
HARDCORE STAT-HEAD ARGUMENT: Players do peak at 27-28, though that’s been creeping later. But great players peak longer, great players who stay in top physical shape (like Teix does) peak even longer than that, and Teix’s cohort features plenty of guys, like Delgado, who were still absolutely raking at age 36. Particularly since they play a non-challenging defensive position.
CHEMISTRY ARGUMENT: If a losing baseball culture doesn’t love a player, I don’t see why that should reflect badly on him.
A-ROD ARGUMENT: In baseball, salary inflation outpaces monetary inflation by a large margin. Therefore, the highest-paid player is frequently not the best player, but rather the best player who signed a free agent contract in the most recent offseason. That A-Rod has been the highest paid player for a long time tells us lots about how phenomenal A-Rod is, and very little about whether the Angels should sign Mark Teixeira.
RINGS ARGUMENT: Let’s just bring Scott Brosius out of retirement and be done with it. Ted Williams, though, can get stuffed.
POSITIONAL FETISH ARGUMENT: It is never “easier to replace” premium production. Premium production is premium for a reason. Paul Konerko is easier to replace; Mark Teixeira and Miguel Cabrera, not so much. Meanwhile, first base is where our hole is.
SINGLES ARGUMENT: That is the single most retarded argument against signing a premier slugger in his prime than I have ever heard.
WORLD ECONOMIST ARGUMENT: Deflation has already hit, in the form of massive asset-price devaluation. It has been combated by Treasury/Fed policies that have thrown literally trillions of dollars at the problem. You can’t print trillions of dollars without causing inflation. I will bet you or anyone on this site that 2010 dollars will be significantly less valuable than 2009 dollars, and that that trend will continue throughout the duration of Teix’s contract.
ALREADY STACKED ARGUMENT: Wood+Kendry will not equal Figgins+Teixeira any time soon, if ever. Also, Wood is irrelevant to the argument — it’s about 1B/DH/LF/RF. Kendry will be a starter in that mix NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS. Signing Teix assures that we only have one hole to fill, and that’s in left. Meanwhile, it gives us the luxury of patience to watch Wood figure out how to hit.
mattwelch - December 19, 2008
Amen
Angel Hawker - December 19, 2008
Works for me...
gorams77 - December 19, 2008
How Austrian of you.........
higdog - December 19, 2008
nice
rjcicc - December 19, 2008
I agree with your comment except...
You kinda cherry-picked the money argument. In 2008 the Angels paid Chone Figgins and Vlad Guerrero alittle over $19M. And they paid Chone Figgins, John Lackey and Scot Shields “just” $17M.
But, I understand the point you were making.
WiHaloFan - December 19, 2008
Cherry picking is the point
When a team sits down and says “Hmmm, how shall I SPEND all this marvelous money?”, they are almost guaranteed to do it less optimally than throwing a bunch to a single superstar. Unless they decide to spend $20 million more per year on scouting operations or something.
mattwelch - December 20, 2008
no matter all this bulolshi_t
he’ll still sign elsewhere. If we go back to the original offer from the Nats of $200M, and the fact that the union asks the player to take the highest offer; and considering the age of Mr. Lerner of the Nats (82), then its more likely Teix would sign there than here. It’s also more likely that he’d sign in Boston because of the merchandising. And its also more likely that he’d sign with the O’s because of Annapolis. So just what is it that the Angels have to offer?
Kristy_Joe - December 19, 2008
I agree in parts...
…I still think we’re 3rd place in the current handicapping.
Having said that, your question “So just what is it that the angels have to offer?” is among the dumbest questions I’ve read on this site in a considerable time. Any free agent is looking for a combination of Money, Success and Lifestyle in their choice of team (with the importance of those proportions varying from player to player).
I think the Angels have a pretty solid offering on those 3 metrics.
The Limey - December 19, 2008
and don't forget the weather
yeswecan - December 19, 2008
Welch....
killing it as usual.
BryanHarvey'sMoustache - December 20, 2008
Hear, hear
The Limey - December 19, 2008
That was meant to be a reply to Mr Welch
The Limey - December 19, 2008
In case people want to forget
with the exception of 1 of the most recent playoff encounters with the Red Sox, the Angels have beaten themselves, more than the Red Sox have beaten the Angels. So, should the Sox land Tex, it certainly doesn’t spell the end of the world for the Halos,nor does it mean we can’t beat them in the post season.
I actually believe that should the Halos sign Tex, that would not be the defining player aquistion that gets us over the playoff hump. We had Tex last year and the Halos imploded AGAIN, even with all of Tex’s AB’s.
What it comes down to is having a proven post season offensive stud on our team. Not jut Tex.
Dono Romantico - December 20, 2008
They are who we thought they are! And we let them off of the hook!
hauldog - December 20, 2008
nice!!!
Dono Romantico - December 20, 2008
When Manny comes up............
Everyone pays attention. When Tex comes up, O.K., that’s nice, that his maybe hit and RBI for the night. He’s not the impact player that Manny is. So I’d like to see a three year Manny agreement for 75M rather than any Teix agreement.
Kristy_Joe - December 20, 2008
"RINGS ARGUMENT: I don't see any."
Are you serious?? You call yourself an Angels fan??
i see many rings to come with or without teixeira.
But I would LOVE to see Mark part of the Hal0 Nation
for the next 8 or so years. He is a one of a kind Batter
and a respectable player, the kind of player Scioscia
wants to see playing for his ballclub.
Hal0Nation - December 20, 2008
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