This is an open thread to post your thoughts on the Angels pending / possible demotion of their best starting pitcher, Jered Weaver.
Personally, I am holding out hope that this is a public ploy to not make the team look desperate as they maneuver a trade of Jeff Weaver.
Otherwise, it would be stupid - and possibly suicidal - to move Jered Weaver down to the minors.
Move someone to the bullpen, but do not send Jered down.
What do you think? How do you feel?
Bill Stoneman may be about to get caught with his pants down.
0 recs | 57 comments
Well I just posted this in the game thread..
If they send Jered down, i think i'll puke... How can you send him down? He's been our best starter since he got here. Colon's not ready anyway... ughI don't care if it's a small sample size, you can't move this kid back down.
Neo8234 - June 14, 2006
I am in total agreement.
Yes, he's a rookie with a very dangerous GB-FB ratio, and we don't know that he won't turn into a Big Weaver clone.However...
He has velocity. Colon, so far, doesn't have his back yet.
He has command. Colon just got shelled - in the minors. We cannot afford that right now.
He has what some people like to call los grandes huevos. Big Weaver, judging from his World Cup audition in the dugout, does not.
The only compelling reason anyone has advanced so far to adequately justifying Little Weaver back to Salt Lake is keeping him from hitting Super-2 arbitration status early.
Arte Moreno is neither a cheapskate nor ignorant about public image. Before Delmon Young did his Milton Bradley imitation, the Devil Rays got crucified in the press and by their fans for playing cheapskate with him by leaving him in the minors. If the Angels demote Jered Weaver and declare money the reason, they have no reason not to expect the same treatment. Arte just got done being ridiculed all over America for the LAAoA business. I doubt he'd want to relive that.
That means there are now NO reasons to send Little Weaver back to AAA. When he supplies one, like, say, turning into Big Weaver, nobody will say word one about it. But to send him down before that, while he is deperately needed, will only confirm to me that Bill Stoneman doesn't know a goddamned thing about running a baseball team.
BigKahunaMan - June 14, 2006
in Bart's defense
He was pitching in a hitter's park and working on speed, not towin a game.But he doesn't strike me as ready.
Rev Halofan - June 14, 2006
Yeah
I don't want to overblow it, considering even the Rocket gave up a bomb to a kid in Single-A. But it still makes his claims of health look slightly ridiculous.BigKahunaMan - June 14, 2006
He lied to them last season
about pitching in pain and he is doing it again and they are letting him - there is soemthing to the culture of major league clubhouses and the status of the VETERAN that expalins perhaps a lot.Rev Halofan - June 14, 2006
Don't even begin to put Colon in the same league
as Rocket. Trying to compare one vs another is impossible. Roger has a closet full of Cy Youngs, and I can't remember the last time he was on the DL, if ever! Roger has a maniacal workout regimen. Bart's consists of deciding what kind of burrito to order.Colon is brittle. He is way too young to have this many boo-boos on his shoulder. In my opinion he will never return to his former 2005 performance.
SocalAngelFaninOC - June 14, 2006
Colon is brittle?
He hasn't been on the DL much either until this shoulder thing. Colon is not brittle. Even in his bad games alot of times we get 6 or 7 innings out of him.If Colon gets healthy, he belongs. He was our best pitcher last year, and probably the AL best (behind Santana in my opinion).
This shouldn't be Colon against young Weaver. Old Weaver has pitched well his last 4 starts, these guys are professionals, we have 8 good pitchers when Coon gets healthy. Let's put 5 of them in the starting rotation and 3 of them in the bullpen. If the guy going to the bullpen whines, tough shit for him.
thewebb - June 14, 2006
The problem is...
Colon's shoulder is a problem since Game 5 of the 05 ALDS and I don't think its going away.They have not found a way to cure it and it looks like he will be able to pitch for a little while before it flairs up again. Unfortunately, I think that is the truth. If Colon can get a permanent fix by doing surgery, I would hope he would do it now so that he might have a chance of coming back at full strength next year.
akathelorax @ Halos Heaven - June 14, 2006
Coon?
youre a racistangels4adam - June 14, 2006
this is baseball
the vets don't lose their jobs because of injury. tragically, jered will be sent down.i don't like it, but that's the way baseball is.
yeswecan - June 14, 2006
They could learn
from Rock and Roll - the ultimate Vet Recycler. NEXT!Rev Halofan - June 14, 2006
unfortunately, they won't
the union is too strong, and the "what have you done for me lately?" strategy doesn't apply with bartolo, a cy young winner. the angels are in a tight spot, for sure.yeswecan - June 14, 2006
this is bullshit
stoneman couldn't even begin to conceive of how cool jered is to be on the same level of Bo Belinsky, who i don't need to mention shagged mimi rogers and was the only Angels pitcher (a fucking rookie, mind you) who could put butts in the seats at the latrine when our fair franchise lived under that slimy rock known as los angeles... i mean chavez ravine.Bo Belinsky threw the first Angels no-hitter 1 year into the franchise's existence.
If jered is in Bo Belinsky's category and they send that kid down... i don't know how much more faith in baseball i'll have to spare...
this is me happy... you don't wanna see me cynical.
proletariat - June 14, 2006
yuck
not mimi rogers... Mamie Van Doren... thanks to Ross Newhan's history i snapped out of my freudian fantasy.proletariat - June 14, 2006
1, 2, 3 Wins You Stay in the Old Ball Game
Weaver the Younger is now up to 4 consecutive wins and counting. Talk of Jered Weaver's death (sent back to the minors) is premature. The Angels publicity department should start promoting Fernandomania instead.When Bartolo Colon comes off the DL either Jeff Weaver or Kelvim Escobar should go to the bullpen. My hunch is that it will be Kelvim because he has done it before. A new flaw in Kelvim's game is trouble getting the 4th out of an inning. Escobar leads the Angels in allowing 13 unearned runs. No other 2006 Angel pitcher has allowed more than 6 unearned runs. In his previous two seasons as an Angel Escobar allowed only one regular season unearned run. That does not count the unearned runs Pablo Ozuna scored after Josh Paul's error in Game 2 of the 2005 ALCS and Aaron Rowand scored after Kelvim's error in Game 5 of the 2005 ALCS.
Presently I see the Angels Big Three starting pitchers being Jered Weaver, Ervin Santana, and John Lackey. Colon, Escobar, and Weaver the Elder must fight it out over the remaining two spots. Talk of trading Evil Ways Santana is all hot air.
In games I have seen Colon pitch for the Angels he sports a 12-14 record. That includes a 5-0 mark against the Texas Rangers. Minus the Rangers Colon is 7-14 against all other opponents in home games. Not exactly earth-shaking. If Colon had started last Sunday against the Mariners instead of Jeff Weaver the score probably would have been worse than 6-2.
Yetijuice - June 14, 2006
You're right
if Jered stays in the majors the only real options are either Jeff or Kelvim to the bullpen -- and it will be Kelvim.Higz - June 14, 2006
OC Register
Quotes Scoch as saying that Escy is not going to the bullpentake it for what it's worth, INMHO you dont send a guy you just signed for three years to be a starter to the pen. You are fucking around with his arm too much!
P237 - June 14, 2006
He's not getting demoted
Look, this isn't a case of a young guy replacing an aging vet because they want the young guy to learn on the job. This is a guy who has clearly been the best pitcher on the team for the last month, has shined in every single game he's taken the ball, and more or less dominated triple A. He's got nothing left to prove at that level.The only reasons to send him down are a) service time, and b) they don't want to piss off his brother. This organization hasn't been too concerned about service time in the past, and they clearly have the money, so I doubt that's an issue. They've also shown that they aren't particularly concerned about getting rid of guys that aren't producing in favor of guys that are, Darin Erstad notwithstanding. But at this point, Jered has been so much better than everyone else, especially Jeff, that I don't see that as much of an issue either.
Let's not get upset until he gets sent down, because before that happens, it's a lot of wasted anger.
LA Seitz - June 14, 2006
Would the Jered quandary exist if NOT for Jeff on
the team? What do you think? Is it tougher for Soft Sosh and Stonehead to make a decision because of the sibling thing? Or is it just the Fucking embarrasment of having paid $8.325 mm for a pitcher who has not been overpowering anyone for 3 years, and with a .500 record before getting signed?SocalAngelFaninOC - June 14, 2006
Stats mean nothing
Just ask Figgins and Erstad....higdog - June 14, 2006
posted this in the wrong place-
my thoughts (and I KNOW you want to hear them)I don't think Colon is going to cut it. I don't think his shoulder is going to hold up past one game, if he even makes it that far. I think Colon is going bye bye and Lil Weave will have his spot in the pitching line up.
This is all medical opinion. For him to have inflammation this long, one game of throwing the ball will reactivate it and he will be on the DL before you know it. Partially because he will also deny any pain/swelling, as is his history. I imagine he is probably on cortisone shots (which won't do anything long term anyway) as well as oral steroids, which will cause all sorts of fun side effects including water retention and weight gain which will make him have to work even harder on throwing and more stress on his shoulder.
At least, that is what I hope because I want to see Weaver stay in the line up and I don't think Colon will be able to cut it anymore.
I want my camera there when Stoneman's pants hit the ground.
ladybug - June 14, 2006
I guess the girls agree here
I don't think Colon will last too long up here, either, so even IF Stonehead sends Lil Weave up to Salt Lake, he won't be there long.Personally, I would send Big Weav to the pen, send Gregg to SL and keep lil Weav right where he is--he's too valuable right now to send up to Salt Lake. I'd rather give him a few more starts and see what else he has up here in the show, just to keep up the momentum that he already has going for him here.
pattimelt - June 14, 2006
This Boy, Too
I'm on record here and elsewhere (ad nauseum, probably) in stating my belief that Colon isn't healthy, and this will all be moot in a month or so as Bart goes back to the DL and WTY reclaims a spot in the rotation.But ultimately, this type of thing happens with some regularity. A guy comes up to replace an injured starter. He does well, then gets sent back down when the starter returns.
The over/under on how many more starts Colon makes this season is 10, and I'm taking the under.
And as impressive as WTY has been out of the gate, let's remember that the first time through the league, a pitcher always has the advantage. I'm 100% certain that Jered has some rocky starts ahead of him. At AAA, he can continue to pitch every 5th day and hone his craft. He'll be back soon enough.
I really wouldn't mind seeing Escobar go to the 'pen to help out, but as someone else said, you don't want to start messing with his arm like that. Or his head, for that matter, although now that Kelvim has his contract extension, I would hope that he's a bit less concerned about building up a starter's stats. And that would be a pretty expensive bullpen piece, although the Halos sure could use someone as good as Kelvim. Basically, there are only two relievers in the 'pen who can currently be trusted (Shields & K-Rod).
IF Colon is healthy, and that's a BIG IF, then it's probably time for the Angels to figure out if they can deal WTE (perhaps with someone like Aybar) to get either a CF or another good setup guy for the bullpen.
jjackflash - June 14, 2006
Well...
I know this thing DOES happen a lot(A guy comes up to replace an injured starter, then he does well, but gets sent back down when the starter returns) BUT- Jered didn't come up tp replace Colon- he came up because the piching sucked and he obviously helped make it not suck.**Note: when I say "the piching sucked" I mean it sucked for Halo standards.
Hutch (someone took my name) - June 14, 2006
weight gain ?
God damn, he already looks like a sumo wrestlerHutch (someone took my name) - June 14, 2006
keep an eye on him...
if his face gets moony(ier!), I bet the family farm he is on some stronger meds than what they want us to believe. Hopefully they have him on non-steroidals, but ya never know.ladybug - June 14, 2006
Why
Can't we give Gregg a chance in the rotation, along with Lil Weaver. Gregg doesn't do well out of the pen because it takes him an inning to get his rhythm down. Give Gregg 5-8 straight starts in the rotation, then decide his fate.higdog - June 14, 2006
we can't afford trying a guy right now for....
5-8 starts. Right now we have 5 good starters and 2 good relievers. If Colon ends up healthy we have 6 good starters. Why add another starter ot the mix?or are you kidding?
thewebb - June 14, 2006
won't happen
when colon comes back, there will be too many starters. sorry, clark kent, you will be in the bullpen. if there is any room at all, the chance will go to jered weaver.yeswecan - June 14, 2006
huh??????
we already have a starter log jam, why in the world would you give Gtegg 5-8 starts at this point in the season..Not only are you going to send Lil Weave down, what else are you going to do send Escy to the Pen for Greg
P237 - June 14, 2006
Not kidding
In a sympathetic tone, I feel Gregg needs an opportunity, but only if Colon proves ineffective.Gregg will continue to look weak coming out of the bullpen.
higdog - June 14, 2006
gregg's not going anywhere
if colon is ineffective, then little weaver will get called up. until weaver shows he doesn't deserve to start, gregg will continue to come out of the bullpen.yeswecan - June 14, 2006
it's like thewebb said
The whole debate and the whole problem here is the starting rotation. We are talking about 6 guys for 5 spots when Bart comes back. Now you want Gregg in the rotation, so now we're talking 7 guys for 5 spots. This needlessly complicates things even more. Who would you send to the pen to make room for Bart AND Gregg? The best Gregg can hope for is to stay in the pen. No way should he even be considered for a spot in the rotation with the surplus the team will have when Bart comes back.Higz - June 14, 2006
higdog
are you a troll for another team? You want to trade Lackey and start Kevin Gregg - you are on Rev Probabtion ... better go have mom wash your Zito Ichiro jersey for Derek Jeter's birthday party celebration......Rev Halofan - June 14, 2006
Why
flirt with trading Santana, when he is better than Lackey and will continue to improve. Lackey for Crawford makes a lot of sense. Gregg probably wouldn't bring anything in a trade so why not give him a shot. If that doesn't pan out then release him. All the Gregg talk is irrelevant if Colon comes back. Lackey is in love with himself and the strikeout. He continues to throw pitch after pitch trying to strike guys out. When he pitches alot of his counts go 3-2. If public perception is that he's an ace or a good #2 starter, then we might be able to get a Crawford for him.higdog - June 14, 2006
Santana better than Lackey
Give me some of what you are smoking...akathelorax @ Halos Heaven - June 14, 2006
There are bad problems...
and good problems, and this is basically a good problem.There are many clubs who would like to have the problem of fitting 6 starters into five spots. Many of them are scrambling around trying to find decent guys to fill the 4th and 5th spot.
If current form means anything, Escy has been the one to struggle recently, and the advantage of moving him to the pen is that should Bart (or anyone else) suffer an injury there is no need for a call to Salt Lake, there's a starter available.
But guys, really the starting pitching isn't our main problem, it's the D and the O.
UK Halo - June 14, 2006
Gregg Stinks
I can't believe I'm reading this. His stats over his last 7 apperances: WHIP of 3.00, OBA of.500 Era 15.43. Not to mention he was the one who was brought up for Bart. I think you have two options if your Stonewall:In no particular order
- Gregg's to SL. Jeff to the Bp
- The monst likely scenerio... Send Jered down, let him continue to pitch every 5th day and makes sure he's ready to pitch when Bart's shoulder goes down gets fat and blows up. If he stays healthy it's only a matter of time before Kelvim or someone else bites the dust.
I also think Stoneone could get creative and make a fucking deal. How is it we got all these great pitchers and studs in the minors and we're 4.5 games back? Do something STONEMAN!rjcicc - June 14, 2006
preach it
i agree.yeswecan - June 14, 2006
stoneman will look very bad
he will look very bad if jered gets sent down. this is the prime time for him to make a move, and while he doesn't want to look desperate, he is.stoneman needs to trade a pitcher for a bat -- preferably for someone with power, although that may be in short supply.
of course, this is all so painfully obvious that it may work against him in his negotiations. who knows...
yeswecan - June 14, 2006
Gregg
I can only see one thing:Demoting Gregg and moving Jeff to the bullpen. Sucks for Gregg because he's the better of the two, but I believe he is eligible to be demoted at anytime w/o passing waivers.
This is crazy, but possible: put jeff on waivers. Some team is bound to claim him and save us a few mill. But do we really want that? Jeff may be struggling, but losing him hurts our pitching depth more than losing his ERA helps. I say Jeff is valuable enough to keep, by which I mean put him in the bullpen and work extensively with Bud.
Angels95 - June 14, 2006
Weaver Waiver
I likes I like ... just make sure they waive the right Weaver!Rev Halofan - June 14, 2006
ha
new nickname: Jeff Waiverworks on a couple levels
Higz - June 14, 2006
Angels95 has the answer !
Maybe you heard Kevin Kennedy the other night, cause he said just what you're saying.I think we all agree. You CANNOT send little Weaver down. The team desperately needs wins right now and he is delivering big time. I wrote a diary a month or so ago in which I said the young Weaver should replace the Old Weaver, who should go to the bullpen. It looks like I was right. What foresight!
Angels95 is correct. The solution is to send Gregg back down to the minors (he still has options) and demote Old Weave to the pen.
"The kid stays in the picture."
Jack Frost - June 14, 2006
but
the problem with putting Jeff in the pen is that he has releived something like 17 times in his whole career. I don't think he could be productive in that role at all.Hutch (someone took my name) - June 14, 2006
It's not so much that he could be productive, but
to GET HIM OUT of the friggin' rotation. The guy sucks. Plain and simple. I said all this in Spring Training when everyone else was praising the signing and singing his praises. It is now clear that Stoneman was throwing Arte's money away.I don't expect Old Weave to produce out of the bullpen. I'd simply bring him into games that we either lead big or are helplessly behind. After this season it's good riddance.
Jack Frost - June 14, 2006
You nailed it JACK.
To have our weakest starter NOT STARTING is the point.Rev Halofan - June 14, 2006
good point
Shitty players shouldn't play. I just hate the thought of him being COMPLETLEY usless, but I guess that's the way it is.Hutch (someone took my name) - June 14, 2006
He's been pitching well...
Big Weav has 4 solid starts in a row now. I don't think you can count his two errors in his last start against him...those had nothing to do with how he pitched.The team is better with Big Weav in the rotation and Esky in the pen.
akathelorax @ Halos Heaven - June 14, 2006
escobar to the pen????
if you're suggesting they move escobar to the bullpen in favor of jeff weaver, you're out of your mind!!!yeswecan - June 14, 2006
Escobar is dominate
in the pen. As much as he wants in the rotaation, and as much as he paid to be there, he's better suited for the 'pen. Jeff W. is an expensive security blanket but you don't just throw him away. Keep them all. We have enough trade bait to land any available player. That's is fact. Stoneman, you suck. Where's our bat!?!rjcicc - June 14, 2006
Honestly...
There is way too much hype being put into this Vet/Rookie BS. It wouldn't surprise me if Mike is fighting to keep the kid, but, Stoneman, in some show of "f*-you" attitude towards the kid (and more specifically Borus) send him down. Yeah, he'll look like an idiot, but, hey, he will show that he has the nuts and you can't F* with him!In reality, Kelvim or Jeff should go to the pen, JC or Hector should either get traded or go to AAA, and Jered should be our 2/3 starter.
S
ScottD00 - June 14, 2006
Obvious.
Why are we even discussing who should move to the pen between Escobar and Weaver?Escobar just signed a contract to be a SP. No way in hell should they move him to the pen at this point unless we start to shorten up our rotation for the playoffs.
Weaver to the pen or trade him. What is there to discuss...
george bush - June 14, 2006
Trade
Or..... Let's trade Jered for Eric Gagne!george bush - June 14, 2006
Uh no
Gagne's career may be all but over. He's on the DL again.Higz - June 14, 2006
Why?
For one thing, the fact that Weaver is even worse out of the pen than he is starting and also that Kelvim is just as good out of the pen as he is starting. Just because he "signed a contract to be a SP" (which I seriously doubt is a contractual guarantee) doesn't mean the Angels' hands are tied. I agree with you that Escobar certainly deserves to be a starting pitcher but what may be better for the team takes precedence over what individuals may supposedly deserve. Think about it too, Kelvim is probably less likely to get injured if he's in the pen than he is if he's throwing 7 innings once every five games, and we all know Kelvim's injury prone.Personally, I don't know what the Angels should do about this situation, but my gut tells me that Kelvim will go to the pen. They can rely on him there and not have to sweat over sending Jeff there. Someone mentioned using Jeff as a reliever in games where the Angels have a big lead, but it seems to me we already have a bunch of guys in the pen who fill that "role" (Carrasco, Romero, maybe Gregg).
Higz - June 14, 2006
Bud Black On 710 Today......
....all but told Mason and Ireland something's cooking. He said Escobar to the bullpen is NOT an option, as that messes with Escobar's arm too much. Look for a trade, unfortunately it's probably going to be Santana, as he has a high value right now. As for Jeff Weaver, he would have to continue to be in the rotation to build up his value to get anything worthwhile in return, as in an impact hitter. If they wanted to give him away right now for some minor leaguer they could do it, but then what's left to deal to get a good hitter in return. Black's quote on Jered Weaver, when asked if Jered was going down was "I anticipate he will have many major league starts this year". So, it is also possible Jered goes down short term while his brother's value continues to build.Tampa wouldn't take Lackey anyway due to his contract. The whole point of dumping a player as good as Crawford is so they don't have to pay him, which is why Santana is attractive for more than just his pitching.
So, probably the prudent thing to do in the short term is sent Jered down for a couple of weeks until they can unload his brother, despite all the crap that would ensue. It might be the best long term plan. Option likely is trade Santana now, but if I'm Stoneman I better expect to take just as much crap as if I sent down Jered. Option 3, not discussed yet, is don't activate Colon because it seems the only people who seem to think he's ready are Stoneman, Scioscia and Colon. Let Jeff Weaver build value, unload him, THEN activate Colon, IF he's ready.
beercub @ Halos Heaven - June 14, 2006
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